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Thread: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

  1. #51
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    You said our mission is to take care of America, this, in the context of our Afghanistan presence. Some of us doesn't equate the Afghanistan mission with taking care of America.
    That is not what I said

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Yes, well as I stated before, having our culture rubbing of on Afghanistan was never a part of the mission in late September 2001'. And it really is irrelevant to and a very unequal trade off for the great numbers of Afghanistan civilians killed during the period.
    Its what happens. As far as civilians killed. Who exactly is killing a vast majority of them? Oh yes not US

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    ... I'm not sure why anyone would expect the Afghans to change when every single moral lesson of the world wars is lost on the people alive today. And we aren't even committed to a tribal lifestyle.

    Anyway, bombing Afgans to kill terrorists undermines the purpose of destroying the terrorists because it creates more terrorists by confirming their arguments about the evils of the West and their influence in the Middle East. We would have kill all of the Afghans, which would raise so many alarms in the region that further strategic partnerships would be impossible and accelerate the spread of terrorism there and elsewhere, not to mention undermining our alliances with everyone else. So we would have to kill the entire Middle East. But then Russia would have to act to protect its allies, so we would have thermonuclear war.
    It worked during WW2. How do you explain the success then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Some of these comments in this topic are over the top and more "simple minded" then the people they bash. Knowing history, which some here have absolutely no knowledge, is the key to understanding the future. So here is a the more you know special.

    Afghanistan is a country rich in rebellions and refusal to be conquered. Alexander the Great conquered Iran in 6 months, it took him 3 years to "conquer" Afghanistan. Then came the Greater Khorasan Empire, Maurya Empire and Greco-Bactrian Kingdom. Then the Seleucids tried to invade and conquer the Bactrian empire. But they failed after a 3 year siege of Bactria (today known as Balkh, it's one of the oldest cities in the world). Then came the Kushan Empire, Sassanian invasion, Kabul Shahi (Shahi dynasty). Now that's history just up to 700 AD.

    Then came the Muslims. For over 1200 years the Afghans fought the Muslims. Arab armies were defeated. Those that weren't, the revolting people submitted to Islam for survival but once the Arab army left they reverted back to their Hindu, Christian and other beliefs. Then they would revolt again. But this is a tactic we see to this very day by Afghans. It wasn't until 1890 the last region of Nuristan Province fully converted to Islam. Those Afghans that live in Nuristan spent centuries in resistance against Islam, but it played a bigger roll later in history but I'll get to that.

    Hotaki Empire founded by a "revolutionary" Mir Wais Hotak. He is equatable to our George Washington. After it's collapse came the Durrani Empire and the rise of the Barakzai dynasty (ruled Afghanistan until 1973) and heading to the 1830s and its wars with the Shikh ans Persians. Now this is the time when the Russians and the Brits wanted to claim central Asia for themselves. It was known as the Great Game strat. British got their ass kicked by those "simple minded" Afghans. Then came the Russians and the Russian learned what the British learned a century earlier. Afghanistan is the grave yard of Empires. Now Nuristan was always a key portion of Afghan resistance. Be it the British, Russian or even American backed Afghan Government.

    Now to say the Afghans, specifically the Pashtuns have no values or morals comparable to us is wrong. Hell, Americans wouldn't be going to the movies this weekend to see Lone Survivor if there was no such thing as Pashtunwali.

    To ignore this history, is to not know your enemy or your friend. When the US leaves Afghanistan, the Taliban will come back. Just as Barakzai dynasty came back after the British walked away a few dozen times.
    Last edited by austrianecon; 01-12-14 at 11:34 AM.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Do just ordinary people hijack jet planes and fly them into buildings and kill themselves. Do ordinary people take flying lessons and tell the flight instructor they aren't interested in learning how to land and take off?
    Was thetr any evidence, prior to 9/11 that they were terrorists?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That's such a calloused attitude. You wish to bomb people in the vicinity of other people that are alleged to be our enemy because they too "PROBABLY" hate us. Only one in five people (some put the estimates higher) that are killed by drones are "alleged enemy combatants". How do you sleep at night. This is a moral outrage. Someone on the ground (CIA assets or whoever the hell they are) provides information that there's bad guys (terrorists) in a a house/building at these coordinates and some guy setting in a CIA building on the 10th floor in Miami flys a drone over and drops a missile down the chimney. Sorry, grandma and two babies plus a couple cats were in there, SORRY, collateral damage. They shouldn't have let the terrorist in. Some of these guys chop your head off or pull your heart out and eat it. But old men and young women and children are at fault because they won't stop letting them live among them, they should run them out. It's too bad there isn't a god. The perpetrators of these crimes against humanity will have to receive their punishments, some other way.
    They should take it upon themselves to kill the terrorists and the bombswill go away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ja View Post
    Its what happens. As far as civilians killed. Who exactly is killing a vast majority of them? Oh yes not US
    "It's what happens" nice. Would you feel comfortable repeating that very calloused statement to the families of the 18,000 dead Afghan civilians as a result of US military operations there? Americans don't understand the nuances of war, particularly protracted war like this. Americans just thought we were going to go to Afghanistan and kill the Taliban and or al Qaeda that was behind the 9/11 attacks, and thus supported the action.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    They should take it upon themselves to kill the terrorists and the bombswill go away.
    I was going to ask, but no, you don't realise how silly you sound saying that.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Was thetr any evidence, prior to 9/11 that they were terrorists?
    You want to get into all that? Sure, but not on this thread. Short answer though, there was plenty of evidence all over the country that men of ME decent were plotting SOMETHING. It was however, largely ignored. You'll have to start a thread on that, if you want details.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It worked during WW2. How do you explain the success then?
    What worked?? Atomic bombs on non military targets or carpet bombing entire cities to make sure you got all the bad guys?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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