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Thread: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

  1. #151
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    But its a progressive stoning, Erod. .

    They start with little rocks and work up to big ones, so he has to support it.
    well, that came from from the same guy who compared a parent killing the person who raped their daughter, to the parent just killing their daughter for being raped. So I think we can conclude thinking has taken a back seat to agenda ...

  2. #152
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    well, that came from from the same guy who compared a parent killing the person who raped their daughter, to the parent just killing their daughter for being raped. So I think we can conclude thinking has taken a back seat to agenda ...
    I really do get the impression that if it somehow came to happen that liking puppies was considered "conservative", he'd make sure to kill a bunch of them just to make sure.

    What makes it so ironic is that it is the Afghan culture that actually represents the antithesis of progress. All he knows is what he is against,however, and so he must support this backwardness in order to be against something else. It is downright Orwellian in its dogmatic ignorance and inversion of reality.
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Ok Stone, fair enough. This all started with you suggesting that America was/is a peaceful nation and Afghanistan knows only war. Despite the fact that war has been brought to Afghanistan by outside forces, I was taking issue with the "America is a peaceful nation" part of your post and showing that in fact America is a nation that has been at war for more of its years of existence then not. You made no differentiation in that statement, then, but you have now. So, if we're talking about the fact that most of the wars America has been involved in have not been on US soil, I readily agree with that, and THAT is evidence that the majority of the wars that America has been involved in have not been defensive by nature. Never mind the fact that no matter what the reason, the White House will ALWAYS present it as defensive.
    I said America is a nation of "peace."

    Are you suggesting that America does not fight defensive wars?
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  4. #154
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by SayMyName View Post
    When one of the first things Americans do when taking over in Afghanistan is to rebuild the former supply line for heroin trafficking in the world at Tajikistan–Afghanistan bridge at Panji Poyon, thus connecting once again the planet with a stable supply of this drug, its hard for the people you want to win over to believe you are on the moral high ground. This, and many other examples, dictate the trevails of turning this region into an area where the enemy once stood against such despotism, as diabolical as they might be.
    You've got it backwards. When the Taliban outlawed opium production, poppy farmers aligned themselves with the US and the Northern Alliance against the Taliban. Now that we've come and continued such an unnecessary policy, the same poppy farmers can count themselves among the Taliban's main supporters.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  5. #155
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Some of these comments in this topic are over the top and more "simple minded" then the people they bash. Knowing history, which some here have absolutely no knowledge, is the key to understanding the future. So here is a the more you know special.

    Afghanistan is a country rich in rebellions and refusal to be conquered. Alexander the Great conquered Iran in 6 months, it took him 3 years to "conquer" Afghanistan. Then came the Greater Khorasan Empire, Maurya Empire and Greco-Bactrian Kingdom. Then the Seleucids tried to invade and conquer the Bactrian empire. But they failed after a 3 year siege of Bactria (today known as Balkh, it's one of the oldest cities in the world). Then came the Kushan Empire, Sassanian invasion, Kabul Shahi (Shahi dynasty). Now that's history just up to 700 AD.

    Then came the Muslims. For over 1200 years the Afghans fought the Muslims. Arab armies were defeated. Those that weren't, the revolting people submitted to Islam for survival but once the Arab army left they reverted back to their Hindu, Christian and other beliefs. Then they would revolt again. But this is a tactic we see to this very day by Afghans. It wasn't until 1890 the last region of Nuristan Province fully converted to Islam. Those Afghans that live in Nuristan spent centuries in resistance against Islam, but it played a bigger roll later in history but I'll get to that.

    Hotaki Empire founded by a "revolutionary" Mir Wais Hotak. He is equatable to our George Washington. After it's collapse came the Durrani Empire and the rise of the Barakzai dynasty (ruled Afghanistan until 1973) and heading to the 1830s and its wars with the Shikh ans Persians. Now this is the time when the Russians and the Brits wanted to claim central Asia for themselves. It was known as the Great Game strat. British got their ass kicked by those "simple minded" Afghans. Then came the Russians and the Russian learned what the British learned a century earlier. Afghanistan is the grave yard of Empires. Now Nuristan was always a key portion of Afghan resistance. Be it the British, Russian or even American backed Afghan Government.

    Now to say the Afghans, specifically the Pashtuns have no values or morals comparable to us is wrong. Hell, Americans wouldn't be going to the movies this weekend to see Lone Survivor if there was no such thing as Pashtunwali.

    To ignore this history, is to not know your enemy or your friend. When the US leaves Afghanistan, the Taliban will come back. Just as Barakzai dynasty came back after the British walked away a few dozen times.
    Correlation does not prove causation. Alexander was fairly successful in Afghanistan, as were (I believe) the British.

    Instead of mindlessly pointing at the history of Afghanistan to assert that victory there is impossible, we should analyze the context and strategies of those previous wars to see what conditions led to defeat, as well as those of the present day. And we should alter our policy first and foremost by deeply reconsidering the status of our relationship with Pakistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  6. #156
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Terrorism is another word for Guerrilla warfare.
    No, it isn't. Guerrilla warfare involves hiding amongst the populace/environment and assaulting the enemy until it is no longer willing to keep up the fight. Terrorism, while often (but not always) using guerrilla tactics, specifically targets civilians to instill fear in a populace that may or may not be directly opposing them. The Vietcong were non-terrorist guerrillas, the Taliban are simply terrorists utilizing guerrilla warfare.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I said America is a nation of "peace."

    Are you suggesting that America does not fight defensive wars?
    I'm saying the vast majority of the wars the US fights are political, by far.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  8. #158
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    You've got it backwards. When the Taliban outlawed opium production, poppy farmers aligned themselves with the US and the Northern Alliance against the Taliban. Now that we've come and continued such an unnecessary policy, the same poppy farmers can count themselves among the Taliban's main supporters.
    I have no doubt that the same poppy farmers might be supporting the Taliban, but production is up since the days when the Taliban were in power. These pictures released from the ISAS and NATO along with the accompanying report paint an interesting picture as well.

    https://publicintelligence.net/usnat...in-afghanistan

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    No, it isn't. Guerrilla warfare involves hiding amongst the populace/environment and assaulting the enemy until it is no longer willing to keep up the fight. Terrorism, while often (but not always) using guerrilla tactics, specifically targets civilians to instill fear in a populace that may or may not be directly opposing them. The Vietcong were non-terrorist guerrillas, the Taliban are simply terrorists utilizing guerrilla warfare.
    You are just proving me right with your example of the Viet Cong.


    Vietcong were doing the same thing as the Taliban. You should read up what the Viet Cong did in Huế, it's My Canh bombing, Đắk Sơn, death squads that killed over 30,000 civilians in South Vietnam.
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by SayMyName View Post
    I have no doubt that the same poppy farmers might be supporting the Taliban, but production is up since the days when the Taliban were in power. These pictures released from the ISAS and NATO along with the accompanying report paint an interesting picture as well.

    https://publicintelligence.net/usnat...in-afghanistan
    at their height of power the taliban was also exercising a rather clear monopoly on power in the relatively stable regions they controlled. So that is hardly surprising. I'm sure if we and the afghan national forces weren't fighting an active insurgency similar successes could be had.

    But other than that, what is your point?

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