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Thread: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    “If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.” Theodore Roosevelt quote ???

    Or was it LBJ, John Wayne or General James Hollingsworth (CO, 1st Infantry Div) in Vietnam ?

    Johnson’s phrase and the philosophy behind it was not universally accepted. For some, the hearts and minds policy was considered a “soft” approach, that control was needed first and that popular support could be addressed afterwards. Win the war and then focus on winning the peace. This was typified by the Green Berets' variation on hearts and minds:


    “If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.” -
    U.S. Green Berets slogan during the Vietnam War


    Bytes: Balls, Hearts and Minds

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Some of these comments in this topic are over the top and more "simple minded" then the people they bash. Knowing history, which some here have absolutely no knowledge, is the key to understanding the future. So here is a the more you know special.

    Afghanistan is a country rich in rebellions and refusal to be conquered. Alexander the Great conquered Iran in 6 months, it took him 3 years to "conquer" Afghanistan. Then came the Greater Khorasan Empire, Maurya Empire and Greco-Bactrian Kingdom. Then the Seleucids tried to invade and conquer the Bactrian empire. But they failed after a 3 year siege of Bactria (today known as Balkh, it's one of the oldest cities in the world). Then came the Kushan Empire, Sassanian invasion, Kabul Shahi (Shahi dynasty). Now that's history just up to 700 AD.

    Then came the Muslims. For over 1200 years the Afghans fought the Muslims. Arab armies were defeated. Those that weren't, the revolting people submitted to Islam for survival but once the Arab army left they reverted back to their Hindu, Christian and other beliefs. Then they would revolt again. But this is a tactic we see to this very day by Afghans. It wasn't until 1890 the last region of Nuristan Province fully converted to Islam. Those Afghans that live in Nuristan spent centuries in resistance against Islam, but it played a bigger roll later in history but I'll get to that.

    Hotaki Empire founded by a "revolutionary" Mir Wais Hotak. He is equatable to our George Washington. After it's collapse came the Durrani Empire and the rise of the Barakzai dynasty (ruled Afghanistan until 1973) and heading to the 1830s and its wars with the Shikh ans Persians. Now this is the time when the Russians and the Brits wanted to claim central Asia for themselves. It was known as the Great Game strat. British got their ass kicked by those "simple minded" Afghans. Then came the Russians and the Russian learned what the British learned a century earlier. Afghanistan is the grave yard of Empires. Now Nuristan was always a key portion of Afghan resistance. Be it the British, Russian or even American backed Afghan Government.

    Now to say the Afghans, specifically the Pashtuns have no values or morals comparable to us is wrong. Hell, Americans wouldn't be going to the movies this weekend to see Lone Survivor if there was no such thing as Pashtunwali.

    To ignore this history, is to not know your enemy or your friend. When the US leaves Afghanistan, the Taliban will come back. Just as Barakzai dynasty came back after the British walked away a few dozen times.
    Very good assessment of the matter, although, I believe in the end it will not be just the Taliban, at least not the order they imposed before our invasion. The mineral wealth will create a new system in things, one that will include corporate interests and their contract soldiers long after the Americans have left. Somewhere in that picture will also be the Chinese, who are very close by. All in all, they will carry on with or without our help, just as everyone else in the world is doing, though some Americans just can't stand the notion that people can do that..."do without us." There must be some psychology about this...related to Munchausen by Proxy syndrome.

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    How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    What do you mean, "some Internet source"? The Wiki source not credible enough for you, I can provide others. The point that your not being able to disprove, is that the US has been at war in some form or fashion, more years than its been at peace. You cannot consider that a peaceful nation.
    That isn't what I am talking about!!!! Read what the hell I am writing instead of trying to correct it and be mister smarty pants. Did you NOT note the quotation marks around the word peace? It looked like this "peace." Do you understand what that means? Or should I explain that to you? Because that is grade school stuff. I shouldn't have to explain to you that that means "relatively speaking/sort of/peace but not really."

    You are 100%, unequivocally wrong. Not about wether or not this country has been at war...but about your introduction of the United States war record...on other people's soil. That has no more relevance on this topic than what kind of shampoo I use. It doesn't matter because it isn't what I was talking about. And yet you wish to continue to make this straw man argument about something that has no relevance at all to what I am talking about. I can't think of any other way to explain this to you...but most people would have understood this by now.



    And no, of course I don't mean on our soil, that's a rarity, and truly defensive wars. The vast majority of the wars we've been in have been off soil wars of aggression and not defensive at all.
    THEN STOP TRYING TO ARGUE THAT IT HAS BEEN AT WAR MOST OF ITS EXISTENCE!!!! DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT I AM TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE HOME FRONT???

    Now that we established that this is ABOUT the home front...then maybe you can understand that citizens of the United States don't understand what it is like to live under the threat of war...on average that is...like the citizens of Afghanistan.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    how ethnocentric of you. That 'inferior' culture has repelled many 'superior' cultures since the time of Rudyard Kipling. ALL cultures disrespect some basic human right or another. What we think are basic rights in this country is a hot topic of discussion. Race, abortion, gay rights... you know the drill.

    In a way it is like going into the desert and faulting the flora there for not being redwoods. The climate and conditions do not support that.

    I'd say someone from an 'inferior' culture could come to this nation and watch thief at the point of a pistol or pen, see the future for sale in the halls of power, damning each other from the pulpit or town square and wonder how can 'goodness' survive in a nation of cannibals.
    Dude, they stone women in public. Give me a break.

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyhunter View Post
    There is a big difference between guerrilla warfare where they target the military and terrorism where they target civilians. It's the target that is important not the collateral damage.
    I'm always amazed how few people are sharp enough to understand that.

    Perhaps I should use the word "honest" instead, because the agenda in question requires such intentional distortion in order to deceive.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Dude, they stone women in public. Give me a break.
    Who is this 'they' you speak of? You act as if this small snapshot of Islam is the entire picture, that would be like saying a record cold day in Atlanta means there is no 'global warming'.

    It wasn't that long ago a white guy could kill a black man and get away with it- the black man's crime was whistling while black, but American apologists don't call that our 'culture'.

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    “If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.” Theodore Roosevelt quote ???

    Or was it LBJ, John Wayne or General James Hollingsworth (CO, 1st Infantry Div) in Vietnam ?

    Johnson’s phrase and the philosophy behind it was not universally accepted. For some, the hearts and minds policy was considered a “soft” approach, that control was needed first and that popular support could be addressed afterwards. Win the war and then focus on winning the peace. This was typified by the Green Berets' variation on hearts and minds:


    “If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.” -
    U.S. Green Berets slogan during the Vietnam War


    Bytes: Balls, Hearts and Minds
    I can assure you Apache, that if you grabbed me by my balls, I certainly would not respond by surrendering to you, my heart and mind. That would only work with someone soft and curvy and much better looking than you!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    That isn't what I am talking about!!!! Read what the hell I am writing instead of trying to correct it and be mister smarty pants. Did you NOT note the quotation marks around the word peace? It looked like this "peace." Do you understand what that means? Or should I explain that to you? Because that is grade school stuff. I shouldn't have to explain to you that that means "relatively speaking/sort of/peace but not really."

    You are 100%, unequivocally wrong. Not about wether or not this country has been at war...but about your introduction of the United States war record...on other people's soil. That has no more relevance on this topic than what kind of shampoo I use. It doesn't matter because it isn't what I was talking about. And yet you wish to continue to make this straw man argument about something that has no relevance at all to what I am talking about. I can't think of any other way to explain this to you...but most people would have understood this by now.





    THEN STOP TRYING TO ARGUE THAT IT HAS BEEN AT WAR MOST OF ITS EXISTENCE!!!! DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT I AM TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE HOME FRONT???

    Now that we established that this is ABOUT the home front...then maybe you can understand that citizens of the United States don't understand what it is like to live under the threat of war...on average that is...like the citizens of Afghanistan.
    Ok Stone, fair enough. This all started with you suggesting that America was/is a peaceful nation and Afghanistan knows only war. Despite the fact that war has been brought to Afghanistan by outside forces, I was taking issue with the "America is a peaceful nation" part of your post and showing that in fact America is a nation that has been at war for more of its years of existence then not. You made no differentiation in that statement, then, but you have now. So, if we're talking about the fact that most of the wars America has been involved in have not been on US soil, I readily agree with that, and THAT is evidence that the majority of the wars that America has been involved in have not been defensive by nature. Never mind the fact that no matter what the reason, the White House will ALWAYS present it as defensive.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibbler View Post
    How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.



    entire article here:

    How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.
    Do they have either one of those there?
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    Re: How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Dude, they stone women in public. Give me a break.
    But its a progressive stoning, Erod. .

    They start with little rocks and work up to big ones, so he has to support it.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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