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Thread: Why brain dead means really dead

  1. #121
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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    From what I think is happening, the bills are either being paid by private donations or the new facility is writing it off. That's just because it a high profile case probably. Plus, I'm sure this family is going to be set once the malpractice suit with the hospital is settled. A child going in for tonsillitis dies during the procedure? IMHO a multi-million dollar settlement.
    Hard to say.

    We are really not sure of what happened. There is a reason that informed consent is required in each and every planned surgical case. Things happen and with and without malpractice.

    Frankly, now weeks after her death, evidence for and against the hospital will probably be less valuable upon autopsy.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    From what I think is happening, the bills are either being paid by private donations or the new facility is writing it off. That's just because it a high profile case probably. Plus, I'm sure this family is going to be set once the malpractice suit with the hospital is settled. A child going in for tonsillitis dies during the procedure? IMHO a multi-million dollar settlement.
    "writing it off" = costs for everyone else goes up and is a separate issue from any lawsuit

    if there's private donations, that's imbecilic of whoever's doing it, but so be it. I just hope it isn't some church that gets tax free land under the guise of "charity." This girl is dead.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    There are clear guidelines -very clear- that distinguish between coma and brain death. She has clearly and completely and legally been declared dead. Nothing on that lines has changed. What the lawyer was doing taking the case is beyond me.

    I would be very interested to see how this case (13 year old McMath) went from brain death to media and lawyer. I would be curious if they were approached or they initiated contact with the media and lawyer willing to fight for keeping a dead child on "life" support.

    When someone is grieving, especially if they are medically nave, they are very susceptible to outside influence. Once the media circus began, there was no turning back.

    What a tragic prolongation of the grieving period.
    There may be opportunistic lawyers lurking in the McMath case, but religion seems to be the prime motivator for absolutist and extreme positions on life issues. Our Judeochristian traditions contain a dualistic view of mind and body...with an ethereal, immaterial mind that controls a physical body. Many....make that most people are not up to speed with the science of how the brain functions - especially the fact that every single mental event that we experience has to correlate with physical brain function! If the higher cortex layers of the brain cannot function, we have no mind...or no conscious mental experiences. If the cortex is permanently damaged and cannot recover, then they are brain dead, and there is no real point to prolonging their lives in a vegetative state. We don't find any evidence for a "soul" or some sort of immaterial mind at work in any part of the process; but a lot of people believe in souls....trapped inside our bodies while we're alive apparently....and that makes them more likely to hold out hope for a miracle to bring the patient magically back to life.

    As I understand it, the main difference between coma and long term coma (persistent vegetative state) and brain death, are the level of brain damage in the cerebral cortex...which would determine the likelihood of recovery or partial recovery. When there is no activity in the higher cortex areas of the brain, there is no capacity for conscious awareness. So, if the damage to the cortex layers is extensive, the neurologists will determine that the patient will never have the capacity to regain consciousness. This state of having no awareness can be considered the equivalent of death if it is permanent.
    Last edited by Commie; 01-17-14 at 05:33 AM.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I usually get in trouble in this section but I'll give it another shot.

    (CNN) -- A person who is brain dead may appear alive -- there may be a heartbeat, they may look like they're breathing, their skin may still be warm to the touch. But doctors say there is no life when brain activity ceases.

    Why brain dead is really dead - CNN.com


    I'm sure you've heard the story of the little girl from California who went in for minor tonsil surgery and due to complications was eventually declared "brain dead." A very sad event indeed but further complicating the tragedy is her parents don't seem to understand what brain dead means.

    About 10 years ago a elderly family friend experienced a similar fate. A blood clot in his leg traveled through his body, lodged in his lungs and his wife found him passed out on the floor. He'd apparently gone about 20 minutes with no oxygen getting to his brain, was on a ventilator at the hospital and declared brain dead. He looked like he was sleeping and would even toss and turn a little but according to the doctors his brain had died and absent a miracle he could not regain consciousness. From a medical science perspective, respirators and feeding tubes only keep organs alive although the person is in all other respects deceased.

    Its not a pleasant topic to discuss but Jahi McMath's passing, as tragic as it is, I think presents a teaching opportunity.
    People who have been declared "brain dead" have "come back to life" and some have even gone on to lead fully functional lives.

    Hell, some doctors cant even legally declare someone dead after it appears obvious the patent is dead. It's not common but people have woken up on the autopsy table, or even in their own caskets.....

    People have had half their brain removed (tumors/accidents etc) for ****s sake and go on to lead fine lives.

    The notion that our medical community knows everything there is to know about the human body is about as insane as someone saying the exact same thing 300 years ago.

    There is plenty to be learned - especially in neuroscience.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Who has had an EEG and declared brain dead and come back to lead a fully functional life?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    People who have been declared "brain dead" have "come back to life" and some have even gone on to lead fully functional lives.

    Hell, some doctors cant even legally declare someone dead after it appears obvious the patent is dead. It's not common but people have woken up on the autopsy table, or even in their own caskets.....

    People have had half their brain removed (tumors/accidents etc) for ****s sake and go on to lead fine lives.

    The notion that our medical community knows everything there is to know about the human body is about as insane as someone saying the exact same thing 300 years ago.

    There is plenty to be learned - especially in neuroscience.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    Who has had an EEG and declared brain dead and come back to lead a fully functional life?
    https://www.google.com/#q=man+declar...+dead+wakes+up

    That's a google search of numerous cases where that has happened. 100+ cases.

    2.15 million results on the issue to me exact.

    Here is a good one:

    Student Declared Brain Dead Miraculously Wakes Up - Miracles Video

    4 doctors declared him^^ brain dead.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    most of those 2 million sites appear to be the noise machine. The first link was a story about incompetence, not the failure of EEG and other diagnostic tests being wrong, in the first link an EEG would not have even been required. The second link was out right miracle which is something different. These miracle recoveries and other sensationlist stories, as far as I can tell from the lit search, are very rare, and very poorly documented, and most of all, inadequately diagnosed. If you are in a hospital, you are warm and not in a drug induced state of somesort and after a reasonable attempt at diagnosis, the Doctors say you are dead, you're dead. If you suddenly wake up and jog to the cafeteria the doctors were charting on the wrong patient or something. The little girl in the OP, I assure you, is brain dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    https://www.google.com/#q=man+declar...+dead+wakes+up

    That's a google search of numerous cases where that has happened. 100+ cases.

    2.15 million results on the issue to me exact.

    Here is a good one:

    Student Declared Brain Dead Miraculously Wakes Up - Miracles Video

    4 doctors declared him^^ brain dead.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    most of those 2 million sites appear to be the noise machine. The first link was a story about incompetence, not the failure of EEG and other diagnostic tests being wrong, in the first link an EEG would not have even been required. The second link was out right miracle which is something different. These miracle recoveries and other sensationlist stories, as far as I can tell from the lit search, are very rare, and very poorly documented, and most of all, inadequately diagnosed. If you are in a hospital, you are warm and not in a drug induced state of somesort and after a reasonable attempt at diagnosis, the Doctors say you are dead, you're dead. If you suddenly wake up and jog to the cafeteria the doctors were charting on the wrong patient or something. The little girl in the OP, I assure you, is brain dead.
    Sorry, can't agree with you here. You're reading what you want the articles to "appear" to you to believe.

    Sorry, don't mean to scare you but physicians aren't as "great" as you may would like to believe. That's why it's always good to get a second opinion with serious medical conditions.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    I work in the field, Mr Nick. But thanks for the sage advice. Try not to mix up miracles and incompetence with medical science.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Sorry, can't agree with you here. You're reading what you want the articles to "appear" to you to believe.

    Sorry, don't mean to scare you but physicians aren't as "great" as you may would like to believe. That's why it's always good to get a second opinion with serious medical conditions.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    I work in the field, Mr Nick. But thanks for the sage advice. Try not to mix up miracles and incompetence with medical science.
    Oh so you believe in miracles? just not a miracle here?

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