Page 12 of 14 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 131

Thread: Why brain dead means really dead

  1. #111
    Sage
    chromium's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    A2
    Last Seen
    06-05-17 @ 10:53 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    16,968

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Talk about a strawman. No one said anything about parents deciding how to run the healthcare system. I am saying that it's not up to YOU how or when this family makes their decision. YOU and your opinions are inconsequential to their decision.
    No kidding, it's up to a court. I'm arguing how i think it *should* be, which is the point of debate.

    Btw, this isn't their daughter anymore. Their daughter is dead. If she was on genuine life support, that would be another matter.

  2. #112
    Guru
    Ben K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:44 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,717

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    They've been ventilating and feeding a corpse for weeks now . It's grotesque.

    If they want to keep her body in state at home, all power to em. But hospitals are for the living, not the dead.

  3. #113
    Educator
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    03-25-14 @ 05:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    873

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    They've been ventilating and feeding a corpse for weeks now . It's grotesque.

    If they want to keep her body in state at home, all power to em. But hospitals are for the living, not the dead.
    I just listened to the latest Point Of Inquiry podcast episode on Itunes, which deals with this issue in an interview with Dr. Arthur Kaplan - the medical ethicist referred to in the CNN article in the OP. One of Dr. Kaplan's main points is that ever since the 70's...when respirators and other life support technologies started finding their way into hospitals, Doctors, for the first time in human history had to deal with situations where people were essentially dead because of cessation of brain function and would never recover...yet the medical technologies could keep many of the autonomic system's functions continuing on, and they had to deal with the question: is this a living person in a deep coma or a corpse that is being artificially animated?

    I underlined "life support" in the first paragraph, because one of the points Kaplan makes is that the language surrounding these issues are clouded by the public perception of medical terms - like life support! To many people, that phrase conjures up the impression of a person being alive but unconscious, when in reality, they may be just a physical body with no conscious awareness and not even any unconscious brain functions.

    This issue of when to pull the plug, is going to become even more crucial for resolving in the near future, as our populations age and more and more people start needing expensive medical care in their later and final years of life. The last thing we need is putting these decisions under the control of family members, because they may often be the last people to be willing to make a rational decision on when to let nature take its course. I imagine this is more so in the cases like this one - of a child, but young adults may turn into unintended icons for family members to hold prayer vigils around and refuse to bring it to a close.....the Terry Schiavo fiasco jumps out immediately as one that was turned into a circus by concern-troll republican lawmakers in Florida...who were well into the process of slashing Medicaid and hospital funding for the poor, but were fully willing to have the State of Florida cover the estimated $500,000 annual costs of keeping Terry Schiavo functioning!

    That's why clear rules and guidelines need to be drafted that will distinguish between someone in a coma, and a living corpse. On the latter - Dr. Kaplan mentioned that this and other notorious cases, like one in Texas - where a pregnant woman has been lying braindead from the point of 16 weeks into her pregnancy, and the husband and other family members want to pull the plug, but the hospital refuses because they are afraid they will be charged with terminating a pregnancy by Texas's idiotic laws! So, they are animating a corpse in the hope that it can give birth to a healthy baby....but somehow this doesn't come across as creepy and revolting to Republicans and non-R conservatives!

    Over time, the bodies of the braindead deceased will begin to decay and die, so according to Kaplan, the medical experts who push the ethic of doing everything conceivable to keep a physical body animated, may be in breach of medical ethics themselves, because what they are doing can be interpreted as desecrating a corpse in the latter stages of suspended animation.
    Last edited by Commie; 01-15-14 at 03:47 PM.

  4. #114
    Sage



    Join Date
    May 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    12,208

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Commie View Post
    I just listened to the latest Point Of Inquiry podcast episode on Itunes, which deals with this issue in an interview with Dr. Arthur Kaplan - the medical ethicist referred to in the CNN article in the OP. One of Dr. Kaplan's main points is that ever since the 70's...when respirators and other life support technologies started finding their way into hospitals, Doctors, for the first time in human history had to deal with situations where people were essentially dead because of cessation of brain function and would never recover...yet the medical technologies could keep many of the autonomic system's functions continuing on, and they had to deal with the question: is this a living person in a deep coma or a corpse that is being artificially animated?

    I underlined "life support" in the first paragraph, because one of the points Kaplan makes is that the language surrounding these issues are clouded by the public perception of medical terms - like life support! To many people, that phrase conjures up the impression of a person being alive but unconscious, when in reality, they may be just a physical body with no conscious awareness and not even any unconscious brain functions.

    This issue of when to pull the plug, is going to become even more crucial for resolving in the near future, as our populations age and more and more people start needing expensive medical care in their later and final years of life. The last thing we need is putting these decisions under the control of family members, because they may often be the last people to be willing to make a rational decision on when to let nature take its course. I imagine this is more so in the cases like this one - of a child, but young adults may turn into unintended icons for family members to hold prayer vigils around and refuse to bring it to a close.....the Terry Schiavo fiasco jumps out immediately as one that was turned into a circus by concern-troll republican lawmakers in Florida...who were well into the process of slashing Medicaid and hospital funding for the poor, but were fully willing to have the State of Florida cover the estimated $500,000 annual costs of keeping Terry Schiavo functioning!

    That's why clear rules and guidelines need to be drafted that will distinguish between someone in a coma, and a living corpse. On the latter - Dr. Kaplan mentioned that this and other notorious cases, like one in Texas - where a pregnant woman has been lying braindead from the point of 16 weeks into her pregnancy, and the husband and other family members want to pull the plug, but the hospital refuses because they are afraid they will be charged with terminating a pregnancy by Texas's idiotic laws! So, they are animating a corpse in the hope that it can give birth to a healthy baby....but somehow this doesn't come across as creepy and revolting to Republicans and non-R conservatives!

    Over time, the bodies of the braindead deceased will begin to decay and die, so according to Kaplan, the medical experts who push the ethic of doing everything conceivable to keep a physical body animated, may be in breach of medical ethics themselves, because what they are doing can be interpreted as desecrating a corpse in the latter stages of suspended animation.
    There are clear guidelines -very clear- that distinguish between coma and brain death. She has clearly and completely and legally been declared dead. Nothing on that lines has changed. What the lawyer was doing taking the case is beyond me.

    I would be very interested to see how this case (13 year old McMath) went from brain death to media and lawyer. I would be curious if they were approached or they initiated contact with the media and lawyer willing to fight for keeping a dead child on "life" support.

    When someone is grieving, especially if they are medically nave, they are very susceptible to outside influence. Once the media circus began, there was no turning back.

    What a tragic prolongation of the grieving period.

  5. #115
    Sage


    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    SW Virginia
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    18,258

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Here's something completely worthless. The Pygmies in central Africa have three levels of death. The first is when a person is declared "dead", which means they are sick. The second is "completely dead", which means the person is gravely ill. The third is "finally and completely dead", which means the person is dead. Everybody needs to know this because it's completely useless, or maybe I should say finally and completely useless. But if you were sequestered with a Pygmy tribe in central Africa, it would be helpful. Maybe.

  6. #116
    Sage
    polgara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,337

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Here's something completely worthless. The Pygmies in central Africa have three levels of death. The first is when a person is declared "dead", which means they are sick. The second is "completely dead", which means the person is gravely ill. The third is "finally and completely dead", which means the person is dead. Everybody needs to know this because it's completely useless, or maybe I should say finally and completely useless. But if you were sequestered with a Pygmy tribe in central Africa, it would be helpful. Maybe.
    This is a great example of why I like DP. Where else can I read about a Pygmy tribe in Central Africa and their views on death? I needed to know that, because who knows when that knowledge is bound to come in handy? :

    Good morning, humbolt.

  7. #117
    Sage


    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    SW Virginia
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    18,258

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    This is a great example of why I like DP. Where else can I read about a Pygmy tribe in Central Africa and their views on death? I needed to know that, because who knows when that knowledge is bound to come in handy? :

    Good morning, humbolt.
    Good morning to you, as well. I doubt it's useful except to point out that the Pygmies view the whole thing - sickness and death - as a function of the usefulness of the affected person to the tribe. This is not to suggest that human value to the Pygmies is limited to usefulness, because they do view worth as inherent. Plus, they have a very good sense of humor.

  8. #118
    Sage



    Join Date
    May 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    12,208

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    This is a great example of why I like DP. Where else can I read about a Pygmy tribe in Central Africa and their views on death? I needed to know that, because who knows when that knowledge is bound to come in handy? :

    Good morning, humbolt.
    Just curious, do we have any Central African Pygmy coroners here?

  9. #119
    Sage
    polgara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,337

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Good morning to you, as well. I doubt it's useful except to point out that the Pygmies view the whole thing - sickness and death - as a function of the usefulness of the affected person to the tribe. This is not to suggest that human value to the Pygmies is limited to usefulness, because they do view worth as inherent. Plus, they have a very good sense of humor.
    As do you, my friend!

  10. #120
    Guru
    Smeagol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Last Seen
    02-19-17 @ 11:35 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,147

    Re: Why brain dead means really dead

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    If you'd like to volunteer to pay the hospital bills...

    I care more about the hypocrisy of it all, as i explained. Hospitals routinely treat the mentally ill and elderly and otherwise disabled like trash and boot them out at earliest convenience. I see no reason this should be an exception. All you've done lately is make a caricature out of everything i say, like i *totally don't care at all* instead of i *have different priorities from you.* I do care about their suffering, but i care more about consistency and saving millions in useless hospital expense.

    You will criticize me no matter what. If i just say "Yeah i'll pull the plug myself," you'll call me a heartless bastard. Anything other than leaving her on...death support indefinitely, is horrific of me.

    From what I think is happening, the bills are either being paid by private donations or the new facility is writing it off. That's just because it a high profile case probably. Plus, I'm sure this family is going to be set once the malpractice suit with the hospital is settled. A child going in for tonsillitis dies during the procedure? IMHO a multi-million dollar settlement.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

Page 12 of 14 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •