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Thread: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

  1. #91
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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Don't cherry pick. Theory says conservatism is required during great years and liberalism in nightmarish years. But in practice, liberalism is needed in nightmarish years whereas liberalism is needed in great years. Liberalism all the way up, liberalism all the way down. And if the SHTF, well then that just proves we were never quite liberal enough!!
    This sounds like something a drunk would mutter before passing out, I can't take any of you seriously.

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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    "A Scandinavian economist once stated to Milton Friedman: "In Scandinavia we have no poverty." Milton Friedman replied, "That's interesting, because in America among Scandinavians, we have no poverty either." Indeed, the poverty rate for Americans with Swedish ancestry is only 6.7%, half the U.S average. Economists Geranda Notten and Chris de Neubourg have calculated the poverty rate in Sweden using the American poverty threshold, finding it to be an identical 6.7%".

    Is Milton Friedman among your "revered economists"?
    Yeah Friedman is a well respected economist, however things have evolved since his breakthroughs and better ideas have been discovered.

    So I guess it doesn't matter what system we use huh? Since ethnicity is all that matters?

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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    They? Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory happening here.
    What?

    This is why its pointless to "debate" any of your righties on this site. You mostly aren't even coherent.

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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Perhaps its from this, where Friedman absolutely owns those nordic socialists.
    So smug, they'd like to be.
    Still stuck in the 80's? LoL, things have changed quite a bit since then. Not to mention the Nordic countries are doing absolutely fantastic right now compared to the U.S. Well at least the people are, the ultra wealthy in the U.S. are doing better than anyone... if that's what you want then by all means congratulate yourselves. Although I must say... I don't think anyone on this forum belongs to their club so I'm not sure why we'd support it.

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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    The easiest way I have been able to explain the idea of small government to the average liberal is to use a sort of "locus of control" argument with them.

    Essentially I see an individuals control over their well-being to exists in concentric circles centered on the individual. Each circle represents the areas where a person has control with the greatest control being at the center with the individual, and each successive circle outward being increasingly larger organizations where the individual has decreasing power over the outcome of decisions.

    So the individual would have the strongest control of themselves, they would be one of a handful of people with a say in their family, they would be one of a large group in their home owner's association, one of hundreds in their school district, and so on up to the outer ring where they are one of billions on the planet. By that point the individual has almost no direct control over events.

    As a small government conservative I believe that the control over the individual exerted by a given circle should be equal to the the individual's control over that circle. This is because the understanding of the individual's needs, and the will to meet that need also decreases with each successive circle. In other words, you know what you need, your family knows most of what you need, your town has some idea of what you need and so on up to the Federal government that doesn't have a clue what you need nor does it really give a damn about what you need.

    The problem with big government is that it increasingly puts the control over the individual and their needs into the hands of the circles least capable of doing a competent job of providing for the individual. It hands out solutions based on averages that will fail to meet anyone's actual needs.

    Where the outer circles succeed is in providing services that are by nature are immune to the averaging curse. These needs come in the form of inalienable rights. There should be no variance in providing inalienable rights, so the average is correct for all people everywhere.

    By applying this simple rule you can easily protect the individual from the majority because the larger the majority amassed against the individual -- and therefor the less chance for the individual to affect the outcome -- the less power the majority has over the individual.

    Granted, the perfect application of this is impossible, and the age of communication makes it even less possible than at the founding of the country when there was a technological barrier between the power of the state and the will of the individual, but it should still be the model for the federal Government.

    What Rolling Stone proposes is an inversion of this principle where the individual abdicates control over almost every aspect of their lives to the outer circles of government for which they have vanishingly small input.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    This sounds like something a drunk would mutter before passing out, I can't take any of you seriously.
    You're just balking without discussing the actual topic. I've made my criticism of how we're currently using Keynes very clear. You have yet to respond in any meaningful way.

  7. #97
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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    The easiest way I have been able to explain the idea of small government to the average liberal is to use a sort of "locus of control" argument with them.

    Essentially I see an individuals control over their well-being to exists in concentric circles centered on the individual. Each circle represents the areas where a person has control with the greatest control being at the center with the individual, and each successive circle outward being increasingly larger organizations where the individual has decreasing power over the outcome of decisions.

    So the individual would have the strongest control of themselves, they would be one of a handful of people with a say in their family, they would be one of a large group in their home owner's association, one of hundreds in their school district, and so on up to the outer ring where they are one of billions on the planet. By that point the individual has almost no direct control over events.

    As a small government conservative I believe that the control over the individual exerted by a given circle should be equal to the the individual's control over that circle. This is because the understanding of the individual's needs, and the will to meet that need also decreases with each successive circle. In other words, you know what you need, your family knows most of what you need, your town has some idea of what you need and so on up to the Federal government that doesn't have a clue what you need nor does it really give a damn about what you need.

    The problem with big government is that it increasingly puts the control over the individual and their needs into the hands of the circles least capable of doing a competent job of providing for the individual. It hands out solutions based on averages that will fail to meet anyone's actual needs.

    Where the outer circles succeed is in providing services that are by nature are immune to the averaging curse. These needs come in the form of inalienable rights. There should be no variance in providing inalienable rights, so the average is correct for all people everywhere.

    By applying this simple rule you can easily protect the individual from the majority because the larger the majority amassed against the individual -- and therefor the less chance for the individual to affect the outcome -- the less power the majority has over the individual.

    Granted, the perfect application of this is impossible, and the age of communication makes it even less possible than at the founding of the country when there was a technological barrier between the power of the state and the will of the individual, but it should still be the model for the federal Government.

    What Rolling Stone proposes is an inversion of this principle where the individual abdicates control over almost every aspect of their lives to the outer circles of government for which they have vanishingly small input.
    Sure this would be great if we'd actually do it. The problem with the Libertarian / conservative ideas here of individualism and less government control is that they have always been used as a bait and switch tactic. I supposed you could say the same thing about lefty better government lies that propose to fix our problems as well.

    In practice less government control has been advocated as increasing individual rights but it always ends up doing the opposite. You have to factor in the powerful private sector and how good they are at manipulating whatever system is in place to their advantage. Look at how the average man is completely dominated by the actions of the financial markets. Your "inner circle of control" is equal to absolutely zero if you get laid off and can't get a job.

    I used to call myself a Libertarian until I found out its just a bait and switch tactic pushed by massive corporations, the business lobby. They crush small business and they crush individuals who aren't part of the power structure all under the guise of "freedom" and "individualism".

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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You're just balking without discussing the actual topic. I've made my criticism of how we're currently using Keynes very clear. You have yet to respond in any meaningful way.
    Currently using Keynes? Wtf are you talking about? We've been doing the supply side economics thing for 40 years now. We did a moderate stimulus that was far too small and a lot of austerity. I'm sorry but the things you say are so backwards from reality I don't even know where to start with you. All you've argued is the same as everyone else who listens to Republican talk radio. You complain about spending, end of discussion.

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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Currently using Keynes? Wtf are you talking about? We've been doing the supply side economics thing for 40 years now.
    No we have not. Our government has been admittedly embraced the Keynesian approach since at least the 70s.

    We did a moderate stimulus that was far too small and a lot of austerity.
    Bogus. You're acting like I'm saying crazy things and then you unleash this doublespeak? Come now.

    You complain about spending, end of discussion.
    Keynes himself would complain about the way we spend during the height of our wildest boom years.

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    Re: Five Economic Reforms Millennials Should Be Fighting For

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    No we have not. Our government has been admittedly embraced the Keynesian approach since at least the 70s.
    Is there something wrong with you? Where do you get your information? What are you basing this on? You have to be joking, right?

    Bogus. You're acting like I'm saying crazy things and then you unleash this doublespeak? Come now.
    "Doublespeak"? What you think its impossible for policy to move in two different directions at the same time? What happened during the crisis is very fresh and recent, are you confused about that as well?

    Keynes himself would complain about the way we spend during the height of our wildest boom years.
    Do you think spending trillions on defense and a broken healthcare system is Keynesian economics?

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