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Thread: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

  1. #41
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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Nobody in Huntsville has experience with building aircraft, they focus on smaller systems. The reason why Boeing unions are entirely reasonable in their negotiations for high pay is because they are incredibly valuable and nearly impossible to replace. If all you needed was regular machinists and capital to run an aerospace company, China would be dominating the field.

    Frankly, I'm sick of this nonsense propaganda that ****ing your employees maximizes shareholder value. Boeing has built cutting edge aircraft for decades in Washington and their employees were well paid for it. Aerospace is a industry where you either provide top quality and go out of business. People don't overlook manufacturing defects even for cut rate prices, even a single failure can kill an entire company. That level of quality is expensive, but its still an absolute requirement. You might have a couple profitable quarters by cutting corners, but eventually it ends up costing a lot more than good employee compensation.

    Oh well. I think it sets a good precedent to tell a group of workers that they are not 'irreplaceable.' It's up to the company and if the company decides it's worth developing a new worker base elsewhere and that that investment is worth developing and will pay off in the future, great. It gives others opportunity. It's a delicate balance between who has too much power....the workers or the corp. In the current economic environment, older Union contracts may no longer be relevant or financially responsible. In the light of the current economic environment, some expectations are more entitlements than realistic.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    People who build aircraft aren't like fast food workers. Its a skilled trade that is based on institutional knowledge. Boeing already tried to build a plant in South Carolina, and is so troubled that it can only meet half its production quota. The only reason why Boeing won the negotiation is because they cleverly screwed the next generation of worker. The current employee's average age is around 50, so they won't really be impacted by the new contract.
    Yeah, SC is so bad that Boeing is expanding there....

    Boeing expanding South Carolina footprint
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  3. #43
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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Nobody in Huntsville has experience with building aircraft, they focus on smaller systems. The reason why Boeing unions are entirely reasonable in their negotiations for high pay is because they are incredibly valuable and nearly impossible to replace. If all you needed was regular machinists and capital to run an aerospace company, China would be dominating the field.
    The meme that it takes a special kind of worker to do a certain job is nonsense. Workers can be trained, relocated, educated etc...The union is experiencing the same thing that the rest of the jobs market is going through, which is in times of high unemployment, the market leverage is shifted toward the company.

    Frankly, I'm sick of this nonsense propaganda that ****ing your employees maximizes shareholder value. Boeing has built cutting edge aircraft for decades in Washington and their employees were well paid for it. Aerospace is a industry where you either provide top quality and go out of business. People don't overlook manufacturing defects even for cut rate prices, even a single failure can kill an entire company. That level of quality is expensive, but its still an absolute requirement. You might have a couple profitable quarters by cutting corners, but eventually it ends up costing a lot more than good employee compensation.
    Most of the people that back unions in here commonly use the argument that companies should negotiate better, or stronger when the argument is made how unions kill companies. Well, in this case that is exactly what happened, and what we seem to be hearing now is how greedy the company is....Can't have it both ways people....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yeah, SC is so bad that Boeing is expanding there....

    Boeing expanding South Carolina footprint
    I've notice the "experience" line used by the machinists in Seattle quite a bit over the last few years. There is some truth to it right now but in 10 years when the "No Strike" agreement expires, that mantra will no longer exist. In a decade, SC will have the experience necessary and be pretty darn competitive.

    And they would have been further along if the NLRB had held up the plant's opening.

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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishstyx View Post
    I've notice the "experience" line used by the machinists in Seattle quite a bit over the last few years. There is some truth to it right now but in 10 years when the "No Strike" agreement expires, that mantra will no longer exist. In a decade, SC will have the experience necessary and be pretty darn competitive.

    And they would have been further along if the NLRB had held up the plant's opening.
    Absolutely, that line is just another scare tactic used by pro union forces, and put out there as a meme....If SC was doing so badly, they sure wouldn't be expanding with long term agreements to finish the plane from start to finish on site.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    yes it does if that company can't maintain a competitive edge against it's competitors. just look what legacy pension plans have done to the auto industry. it is driving them bankrupt.
    the reason that foreign car makers are doing so well is that they don't have legacy pension costs for their products. they run 401k systems.
    The only competitor Boeing has is Airbus, who pays high European wages. There is no such thing as cheap labor capable of building commercial airliners. You have bought into the nonsense that all labor can be trivially replaced and has no real value. When it comes to building airplanes, it couldn't be further from the truth.

    while most of their cars are built here in the US they are building better quality cars cheaper than the big 3.

    the company rule is to stay in business. if it can't do that where it is at then it will move to another area.
    Cars are nothing like airplanes. The build standards are light years apart.

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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Oh well. I think it sets a good precedent to tell a group of workers that they are not 'irreplaceable.' It's up to the company and if the company decides it's worth developing a new worker base elsewhere and that that investment is worth developing and will pay off in the future, great. It gives others opportunity. It's a delicate balance between who has too much power....the workers or the corp. In the current economic environment, older Union contracts may no longer be relevant or financially responsible. In the light of the current economic environment, some expectations are more entitlements than realistic.
    Washington Boeing employees have continued to build excellent high quality aircraft as they have for decades. Meanwhile, the Dreamliner has run into problems because of managements failures in outsourcing components and problems in setting up different production lines. Rewarding failure and punishing success is utterly moronic.

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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Washington Boeing employees have continued to build excellent high quality aircraft as they have for decades. Meanwhile, the Dreamliner has run into problems because of managements failures in outsourcing components and problems in setting up different production lines. Rewarding failure and punishing success is utterly moronic.
    What are you basing this on? Do you have anything to back up your claims here? Because the only thing I have read is that some slow downs in delivery are due to Boeing having to send the planes to a different state for paint, and Logo, then return it to SC for delivery, which has been addressed, and a new paint facility is being built in SC for that reason....So, I'd like to see what you have.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The meme that it takes a special kind of worker to do a certain job is nonsense. Workers can be trained, relocated, educated etc...The union is experiencing the same thing that the rest of the jobs market is going through, which is in times of high unemployment, the market leverage is shifted toward the company.
    Boeing could build up a real production line in South Carolina. They could relocate experienced workers, build up local infrastructure and supply chains, give grants to local educational facilities for needed job skills and everything else they do in Washington. However, that requires a serious investment in both time and money that belies their "cheap labor" justification. Especially because once their employees gain expertise at building aircraft, they need to be paid higher salaries to retain them. You can't build airplanes without paying people a lot of money, that is simply market forces at work. There is a reason why nobody builds airliners in the usual countries with cheap labor.

    Most of the people that back unions in here commonly use the argument that companies should negotiate better, or stronger when the argument is made how unions kill companies. Well, in this case that is exactly what happened, and what we seem to be hearing now is how greedy the company is....Can't have it both ways people....
    If Boeing fails because they refuse to pay reasonable wages to retain their specialized workforce, that failure squarely falls on management. I'm not claiming that Boeing is going to collapse tomorrow, but continuing to make these kind of stupid mistakes will have consequences down the road.

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    Re: Boeing Machinists Approve Contract To Secure 777X Work

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What are you basing this on? Do you have anything to back up your claims here? Because the only thing I have read is that some slow downs in delivery are due to Boeing having to send the planes to a different state for paint, and Logo, then return it to SC for delivery, which has been addressed, and a new paint facility is being built in SC for that reason....So, I'd like to see what you have.
    Boeing is currently building 1.5 aircraft a month in Charlotte when their schedule called for 3. Boeing SC shifts message on North Charleston production goals – The Post and Courier

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