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Alan Turing, code-breaker castrated for homosexuality, receives royal pardon

Ikari said:
Correct. A pardon is just forgiving a crime, it doesn't mean they admit error. If they wanted to make a real statement, it would have been an apology to all whom were subjugated to such horrendous practice.
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He received an apology in 2009

Thousands of people have come together to demand justice for Alan Turing and recognition of the appalling way he was treated. While Turing was dealt with under the law of the time, and we can't put the clock back, his treatment was of course utterly unfair, and I am pleased to have the chance to say how deeply sorry I and we all are for what happened to him. Alan and the many thousands of other gay men who were convicted, as he was convicted, under homophobic laws, were treated terribly. Over the years, millions more lived in fear in conviction. I am proud that those days are gone and that in the past 12 years this Government has done so much to make life fairer and more equal for our LGBT community. This recognition of Alan's status as one of Britain's most famous victims of homophobia is another step towards equality, and long overdue.
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So on behalf of the British government, and all those who live freely thanks to Alan's work, I am very proud to say: we're sorry. You deserved so much better.
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Gordon Brown: I'm proud to say sorry to a real war hero - Telegraph

Apparently he was denied a pardon before

A posthumous pardon was not considered appropriate as Alan Turing was properly convicted of what at the time was a criminal offence. He would have known that his offence was against the law and that he would be prosecuted.
It is tragic that Alan Turing was convicted of an offence which now seems both cruel and absurd-particularly poignant given his outstanding contribution to the war effort. However, the law at the time required a prosecution and, as such, long-standing policy has been to accept that such convictions took place and, rather than trying to alter the historical context and to put right what cannot be put right, ensure instead that we never again return to those times.
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Government rejects a pardon for computer genius Alan Turing | Science | theguardian.com
 
Goshin said:
He was actually, physically castrated? Just for being gay? In Britain?


Astonishing. Appalling also.
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Yeah, the history of "conversion therapy" goes back to some really beyond the pale torture, like lobotomy, castration, electric shock, forced sex with prostitutes. Some of that comes from the same medical organizations we all love and trust today.
 
Cephus said:
It's nothing of the sort. A win for decency would have been not to do it in the first place. They were wholly indecent and waiting until long after the guy is dead to apologize for something they never should have done in the first place is pretty damn hollow.
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It's stupid how some fear it will lead to disrespect of law in general, by admitting that the law was unjust from the start. From their view, Turing knowingly broke a law, and pardons are almost given unless the individual was proven innocent, is why it took so long. It's a win for decency because of just how rare pardons of this sort are.
 
chromium said:
It's stupid how some fear it will lead to disrespect of law in general, by admitting that the law was unjust from the start. From their view, Turing knowingly broke a law, and pardons are almost given unless the individual was proven innocent, is why it took so long. It's a win for decency because of just how rare pardons of this sort are.
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Then they shouldn't have pardoned him, they shouldn't have even mentioned him, they should have just admitted how stupid British society and government was at the time and continues to be on this subject, if such is the case. A posthumous pardon is pointless.
 
Cephus said:
Then they shouldn't have pardoned him, they shouldn't have even mentioned him, they should have just admitted how stupid British society and government was at the time and continues to be on this subject, if such is the case. A posthumous pardon is pointless.
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It's a more symbolic way of doing everything you just said and honoring someone who was treated abhorrently in life. To some it's pointless. To others (especially his descendants, i would imagine), it matters.
 
chromium said:
It's a more symbolic way of doing everything you just said and honoring someone who was treated abhorrently in life. To some it's pointless. To others (especially his descendants, i would imagine), it matters.
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Symbolism doesn't change reality, sorry. Besides, Alan Turing didn't have any children, thus no descendants.
 
Cephus said:
Symbolism doesn't change reality, sorry. Besides, Alan Turing didn't have any children, thus no descendants.
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Yeah...i meant his surviving family. That's typically one way these pardons are given is the family requests it. Given there probably is none left, the govt blew that by waiting so long i guess.
 
chromium said:
Yeah...i meant his surviving family. That's typically one way these pardons are given is the family requests it. Given there probably is none left, the govt blew that by waiting so long i guess.
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Considering he died in 1954, I rather doubt there was any direct family surviving. Certainly his parents were dead, he had an older brother that is certainly dead, which direct family members were left to request such a pardon anyhow? Instead of pardoning people who were wronged under stupid laws, like Turing and Galileo by the Catholics, I'd be much happier having them come out and admit they were wrong all along and their policies at the time were simply absurd and the harm should never have been done in the first place.
 
The British government appologised several years ago while that grumpy scottish guy was still primeminister.

Weird how the legal process into pardoning him took so long.
 
How the hell does one merely "repeal" castration???? :shock:

I am absolutely horrified that the British government deliberately mutilated a citizen for the "sin" of being a homosexual. Outrageous! :2mad:
 
Cephus said:
It's nothing of the sort. A win for decency would have been not to do it in the first place. They were wholly indecent and waiting until long after the guy is dead to apologize for something they never should have done in the first place is pretty damn hollow.
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While the pardon clearly does Turing little good, it is nonetheless important to state in an official manner that his treatment was barbaric and that it no longer represents our values moving forward. Apologizing after the fact is better than refusing to acknowledge that the act didn't happen, wasn't relevant or wasn't wrong.
 
Your Star said:
Very sad. May he RIP and I hope, wherever he is, he knows that the injustice done upon him has been noted as a wrongdoing.
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I believe he is here with us, through his influence on the world. And the important thing, I'm sure he'd agree, is that we know.
 
sangha said:
Actually, it does

If it didn't, atheists wouldn't get so upset by things like plaques with the Ten Commandments on govt property
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Questioning the seperation of religion and state is not like rehabilitating a man who was wronged by his government.
 
The German said:
Questioning the seperation of religion and state is not like rehabilitating a man who was wronged by his government.
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Having a statue of the ten commandments doesn't change the govt at all. It's completely symbolic.

And I think you may have missed my point that symbolic actions do matter.
 
sangha said:
Actually, it does

If it didn't, atheists wouldn't get so upset by things like plaques with the Ten Commandments on govt property
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There is symbolism which is action for the sake of action and then there is something like principle, like the principle of atheism (which should be done wisely, not like with the cross from the monument issue).
 
Cephus said:
Considering he died in 1954, I rather doubt there was any direct family surviving. Certainly his parents were dead, he had an older brother that is certainly dead, which direct family members were left to request such a pardon anyhow? Instead of pardoning people who were wronged under stupid laws, like Turing and Galileo by the Catholics, I'd be much happier having them come out and admit they were wrong all along and their policies at the time were simply absurd and the harm should never have been done in the first place.
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We build monuments to holocaust victims, war memorials, statues you name it. Symbolism matters to people and in this case, the pardon does concede all that. He is now officially innocent.
 
DiAnna said:
How the hell does one merely "repeal" castration???? :shock:

I am absolutely horrified that the British government deliberately mutilated a citizen for the "sin" of being a homosexual. Outrageous! :2mad:
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Not only that, but one of its most important citizens of 20th century.

Here's the other reason the pardon's a good thing: many yesterday weren't aware of this outrage or how deplorably gay people were treated by the "greatest generation."
 
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chromium said:
We build monuments to holocaust victims, war memorials, statues you name it. Symbolism matters to people and in this case, the pardon does concede all that. He is now officially innocent.
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No he isn't. He was absolutely and without doubt guilty of breaking the laws in existence at the time. Pardoning him doesn't change that. It isn't an acknowledgement that the laws were fundamentally wrong, only that the government is no longer interested in prosecuting him for breaking them.
 
Ikari said:
Castrated and driven to suicide for the effort. Well not really so much for being a brilliant soldier, but because gay is icky.
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That was the law back then, disgusting as it was that was the law. Not sure why people are surprised by this given the fact it was 60-70- years ago and tolerance wasn't exactly a priority.
 
Cephus said:
No he isn't. He was absolutely and without doubt guilty of breaking the laws in existence at the time. Pardoning him doesn't change that. It isn't an acknowledgement that the laws were fundamentally wrong, only that the government is no longer interested in prosecuting him for breaking them.
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The government had already apologized. Also like i said, the pardon, being symbolic, has made others aware, at least a couple in this thread even, that this persecution took place. In fact, it happened to thousands of Brits. That alone makes the pardon worthwhile.

And yes, a pardon can be (and is, in this case) a retroactive declaration of innocence/persecution. That's the entire point of this. Other times, it's as you say, merely letting someone out of prison before the sentence is over.
 
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Goshin said:
He was actually, physically castrated? Just for being gay? In Britain?


Astonishing. Appalling also.
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Yea. I thought they were way more tolerant with a pleasant rainbow filled history, where we Americans are demons wrought be a demon filled past...???
 
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