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Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage[W:780]

Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Except I don't.

Rights don't exist.
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Rights are a social construct. The only right in nature really is to survive or die. Human society adds things like comfort, liberty, and luxury to the mix.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Should we have a vote? How many people think Scatt killed this thread?
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

paddymcdougall said:
Should we have a vote? How many people think Scatt killed this thread?
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Obviously the intention.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Deuce said:
the
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Relax on opinions based upon your personal and emotional wants and hopes about another's intentions.

The thread was killed by the same thing that kills all threads, an inability to come to an agreement on which definition of a word, with many definitions, each person wants to use.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

paddymcdougall said:
Should we have a vote? How many people think Scatt killed this thread?
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It's pretty common when your (multiple) arguments get debunked and you cannot admit it gracefully and so choose to descend into the type of nonsense where no one else can 'be right'....and they wont... or cant... 'explain' their answer.

I'm still wondering if Utah has a similar state constitution that will allow their voters to put this on a ballot, like WA St did. Our state legislature voted to recognize SSM but then religious "Family First" organizations were able to get enough signatures on petitions and get it on the ballot. Where it lost. But not all states are the same....Utah may not have such a provision or it's voters may not wish to challenge it.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

paddymcdougall said:
Should we have a vote? How many people think Scatt killed this thread?
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Scatt, when not properly processed can kill a lot of things, but it can grow mushrooms!
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

tacomancer said:
Scatt, when not properly processed can kill a lot of things, but it can grow mushrooms!
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OOOO!!! and we do like mushrooms!!!
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Lursa said:
I'm still wondering if Utah has a similar state constitution that will allow their voters to put this on a ballot, like WA St did. Our state legislature voted to recognize SSM but then religious "Family First" organizations were able to get enough signatures on petitions and get it on the ballot. Where it lost. But not all states are the same....Utah may not have such a provision or it's voters may not wish to challenge it.
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Utah was one of the States in 2004 to ban both Same-sex Civil Marriage and Civil Unions in their State Constitution.

Kitchen v. Herbert (the recent Utah case) was in Federal Court not State court so a new ballot wouldn't mean anything. Unless it was a ballot to repeal 2004's Amendment 3 and make SSCM legal, in which case the District Court ruling in Kitchen would be moot.


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Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

WorldWatcher said:
Utah was one of the States in 2004 to ban both Same-sex Civil Marriage and Civil Unions in their State Constitution.

Kitchen v. Herbert (the recent Utah case) was in Federal Court not State court so a new ballot wouldn't mean anything. Unless it was a ballot to repeal 2004's Amendment 3 and make SSCM legal, in which case the District Court ruling in Kitchen would be moot.


>>>>
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Just as an aside...WA St was the first state to recognize SSM *by popular vote.* :)
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Lursa said:
Just as an aside...WA St was the first state to recognize SSM *by popular vote.* :)
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Popular vote gay marriage is very unpopular as of yet.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Popular vote gay marriage is very unpopular as of yet.
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"As if yet" means currently. Most popular votes on Same-sex Civil Marriage occurred about a decade ago.

In 2012 there were four states with ballots on Same-sex Civil Marriage during general elections (Maine, Washington, Maryland, and Minnesota - IIRC) and the issue was won in each state.

In addition it may very well be placed before the voters of Ohio in 2014 as it appears the group seeking to reversion the discriminatory language in the Ohio Constitution says they already have the signatures for a ballot initiative. (Will Ohio reverse course on same-sex marriage in 2014? | WVXU)

BTW there statement in the article that says "And, Burress said, there is no other state in the nation where voters, once they have approved a gay marriage ban, have undone it at the polls.". Burress is wrong. Maine banned Same-sex Civil Marriage in 2009 at the polls and repealed that ban in 2012.



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Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

WorldWatcher said:
"As if yet" means currently. Most popular votes on Same-sex Civil Marriage occurred about a decade ago.

In 2012 there were four states with ballots on Same-sex Civil Marriage during general elections (Maine, Washington, Maryland, and Minnesota - IIRC) and the issue was won in each state.

In addition it may very well be placed before the voters of Ohio in 2014 as it appears the group seeking to reversion the discriminatory language in the Ohio Constitution says they already have the signatures for a ballot initiative.

BTW there statement in the article that says "And, Burress said, there is no other state in the nation where voters, once they have approved a gay marriage ban, have undone it at the polls.". Burress is wrong. Maine banned Same-sex Civil Marriage in 2009 at the polls and repealed that ban in 2012.
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4 out of about 40 tries, right?
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
4 out of about 40 tries, right?
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4 out of 4 in general elections a decade after the initial surge.

Your premise is like saying that in Alabamian's now support a constitutional ban on interracial marriage because in the past they voted to amend their constitution to ban such things.

To think that attitudes don't change over time is a failure of logic.


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Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

WorldWatcher said:
4 out of 4 in general elections a decade after the initial surge.
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Those were the first four in a decade?
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Those were the first four in a decade?
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You'd have to go do some homework to break it down, you could probably Google "Same sex marriage in _____________ wiki" and look up each individual state.

The bulk of the 33 states passed their Amendments in 2000 & 2004, a couple in 2006 (IIRC). A decade ago margins of victory were 23%-76%. By 2008 (California Prop 8) and 2009 (Maine Question 1) support had shifted so that the measures pased but by a narrow percentage where a shift on on 2.5%-2.75% would have changed the outcome. In 2012, four measures during general elections, and all won because that 2.5%-3% shifted in the other way - one of course being Maines repeal which they had passed only 4 years before.

There is no denying the fact that the trend has been shifting to not denying Civil Marriage equality as shown not only in opinion polls but at the ballot boxes during general elections.


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Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

WorldWatcher said:
The bulk of the 33 states passed their Amendments in 2000 & 2004, a couple in 2006 (IIRC). A decade ago margins of victory were 23%-76%. By 2008 (California Prop 8) and 2009 (Maine Question 1) support had shifted so that the measures pased but by a narrow percentage where a shift on on 2.5%-2.75% would have changed the outcome. In 2012, four measures during general elections, and all won because that 2.5%-3% shifted in the other way - one of course being Maines repeal which they had passed only 4 years before.
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So just the "bulk" were a decade ago?

The bulk of gay marriage has been approved not by a majority of the voters, but court order or legislation.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Popular vote gay marriage is very unpopular as of yet.
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I wouldn't say VERY unpopular. It is getting closer to 50% in many cases. The anti-SSM people have lost. Time and history is on the pro-SSM side.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
So just the "bulk" were a decade ago?

The bulk of gay marriage has been approved not by a majority of the voters, but court order or legislation.
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The bulk of ex-slaves were freed by executive order and not approved by a majority of the voters
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

TheNextEra said:
I wouldn't say VERY unpopular. It is getting closer to 50% in many cases. The anti-SSM people have lost. Time and history is on the pro-SSM side.
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They will lose, but they have not lost yet.

sangha said:
The bulk of ex-slaves were freed by executive order and not approved by a majority of the voters
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Lincoln could not (and did not) free the slaves in Africa anymore than he could free the slaves in the confederacy.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
They will lose, but they have not lost yet.
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Just because you piss in the wind, doesn't mean you won't get wet. Yes, effectively the writing is on the wall, they lost. Now they are just fighting the inevitable. It doesn't bother me in the least because it makes the anti-SSM crowd look worse and worse everyday. Even the GOP is starting to change their tune about SSM because they see the writing on the wall too.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

TheNextEra said:
Just because you piss in the wind, doesn't mean you won't get wet. Yes, effectively the writing is on the wall, they lost. Now they are just fighting the inevitable. It doesn't bother me in the least because it makes the anti-SSM crowd look worse and worse everyday. Even the GOP is starting to change their tune about SSM because they see the writing on the wall too.
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I said they will lose, but they have not lost yet.

Keep in mind 4 states out of 50 want gay marriage, at least provably want gay marriage.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I said they will lose, but they have not lost yet.

Keep in mind 4 states out of 50 want gay marriage, at least provably want gay marriage.
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Well I'm sure the majority of states wouldn't want you so maybe we should put that to a popular vote as well.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

TheNextEra said:
Well I'm sure the majority of states wouldn't want you so maybe we should put that to a popular vote as well.
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So the same as your mother?
 
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