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Thread: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage[W:780]

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I'm sorry, I dont understand how your question answers my question.
    Are rights universal?

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The answer is there is no personal harm. It's the question though that's the problem. If your next door neighbor (we'll call him Jimmy) gets his brains blown out during a drug deal 30 miles away - what harm is caused to you? That would assume then that people killing other people, as long as it's not you, is fine. The assumption that two dudes getting married causes harm is the fallacy.... does something have to cause personal harm for someone to be against it? One would think so given the question. (That may be why you don't get a straight answer).
    But this isn't just about "being against it." There's "being against it" and there's actively working to make it illegal for somebody else. Nobody cares what you or I think of their marriage. I didn't get to vote my approval or disapproval of Britney Spears marrying some dude for 12 hours or whatever. If asked beforehand, I'd say I'd be "against" such a frivolous action, but I'd also say that it's none of my ****ing business. Jimmy getting shot quite clearly causes harm to Jimmy. While it doesn't directly affect me, that doesn't make it "just fine." It affects Jimmy and I'm pretty sure he'd argue for that being illegal.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    Are rights universal?
    Among humans I'd say that there is a construct in every group of any size that recognizes something(s) that enables those humans to live together and optimize reproduction.

    Are the same constructs universal? No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Among humans I'd say that there is a construct in every group of any size that recognizes something(s) that enables those humans to live together and optimize reproduction.

    Are the same constructs universal? No.
    So "rights" apply to only some people?

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    But this isn't just about "being against it." There's "being against it" and there's actively working to make it illegal for somebody else.
    There are degrees of disagreement. Why do some athiests spend tens of thousands of dollars to remove a cross that also is hurting no one? But it gets removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Nobody cares what you or I think of their marriage. I didn't get to vote my approval or disapproval of Britney Spears marrying some dude for 12 hours or whatever. If asked beforehand, I'd say I'd be "against" such a frivolous action, but I'd also say that it's none of my ****ing business. Jimmy getting shot quite clearly causes harm to Jimmy.
    And those sanctimonious moral outraged bible thumpers who have a high degree of disagreement with these acts might argue the dude marrying a dude hurts them and they don't even know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    While it doesn't directly affect me, that doesn't make it "just fine." It affects Jimmy and I'm pretty sure he'd argue for that being illegal.
    And it may be that these people who disagree with SSM feel it's hurting society, hurting the people involved because again, some believe it's an un-natural act and therefore hurts everyone. If they disagree enough, they will attempt to take action against it - same as the atheist removing the cross which hurts no one. I'm with you on this one, I don't care what people do in their bedrooms as long as it's legal, they're all of age, and it's consensual. Yes Jimmy would argue for that illegality. Not my best analogy ever.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    So "rights" apply to only some people?
    In this country, people can lose their rights as decided by the courts, so I guess that can be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    There are degrees of disagreement. Why do some athiests spend tens of thousands of dollars to remove a cross that also is hurting no one? But it gets removed.
    According to some, unconstitutional is unconstitutional.

    And those sanctimonious moral outraged bible thumpers who have a high degree of disagreement with these acts might argue the dude marrying a dude hurts them and they don't even know it.
    And they're free to attempt to make that argument, but they tend not to. Even the dip****s "defending" Prop 8 in CA weren't dumb enough to try to raise that one. (and they were so bad I swear they were liberal plants)

    And it may be that these people who disagree with SSM feel it's hurting society, hurting the people involved because again, some believe it's an un-natural act and therefore hurts everyone. If they disagree enough, they will attempt to take action against it - same as the atheist removing the cross which hurts no one. I'm with you on this one, I don't care what people do in their bedrooms as long as it's legal, they're all of age, and it's consensual. Yes Jimmy would argue for that illegality. Not my best analogy ever.
    And my point, essentially, is that they can never actually specify how SSM is hurting society. It's always "it hurts society by eroding our moral fabric" or something equally vague. Prop 8's legal team failed spectacularly to actually demonstrate any specific harm it causes. People are free to hold these beliefs, but "It's bad because I say it's bad" is not something that tends to sway a court in an equal protection challenge.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    Okay, well I do not support state discrimination for any reason, and most certainly not the state racial and gender discrimination that occurs.
    On the contrary, I'm pretty sure you do. Otherwise you believe that the state should allow children to drive or to purchase alcohol, cigarettes. Or perhaps to have complete freedom from their parents. Or you think the military should really have very few rules, particularly about the conduct of military personnel (since that would be discrimination, unless you would prefer the UCMJ apply to all citizens). Maybe you feel that prisoners and non-prisoners should be treated the exact same, since incarcerating people is a form of discrimination against those who have committed "crimes". Now it is possible that you are completely for anarchy, but not likely. If you are though, then it is pointless to discuss this with you anyway because you are not really for having a government and this is a discussion about the government and their job.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    Are rights universal?
    No. We give as many people as we can rights, but they really are not universal. A person can have their rights restricted for what is viewed as the good of the rest of society, based on many things.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. We give as many people as we can rights, but they really are not universal. A person can have their rights restricted for what is viewed as the good of the rest of society, based on many things.
    Sounds arbitrary and subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    On the contrary, I'm pretty sure you do. Otherwise you believe that the state should allow children to drive or to purchase alcohol, cigarettes. Or perhaps to have complete freedom from their parents. Or you think the military should really have very few rules, particularly about the conduct of military personnel (since that would be discrimination, unless you would prefer the UCMJ apply to all citizens). Maybe you feel that prisoners and non-prisoners should be treated the exact same, since incarcerating people is a form of discrimination against those who have committed "crimes". Now it is possible that you are completely for anarchy, but not likely. If you are though, then it is pointless to discuss this with you anyway because you are not really for having a government and this is a discussion about the government and their job.
    I do not support any state discrimination.

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