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Thread: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage[W:780]

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    No, you are not now trying to claim that one of the "slavery amendments" (the 13, 14, 15th amendments) has nothing to do with slavery. You think that that civil rights were all squared up when slavery ended? And you are asking me to do more research??? Jesus, what in Hell am I dealing with here?
    They were no longer slaves once they were freed, which was taken care of by the 13th Amendment. Which means there is no way that the 14th Amendment was meant to only protect the rights of slaves. It in fact protects the rights of all citizens, particularly from the states and the laws of the various states.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I have posted occasionally elsewhere that someday, we will look back at this political battle and be embarrassed that our society was so ignorant...even if unintentionally so...much like we do now looking back at those who chose to deny women and blacks equal rights...or to even consider them less or less deserving.

    I do not want to be part of the generation who 'prevented' gays from marrying and establishing their equal rights in our society. I dont want to look back and be embarrassed.
    I totally agree!

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You claimed that marriage or same sex marriage laws were not part of the Constitution. They are covered by it, even if they are not specifically mentioned and the part is what I mentioned, EPC of the 14th.
    Agree.

    Anthony might want to look up the court cases of prisoners wanting to marry; the SC has declared there is a right to marry.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Its only been 5 years. Not much has changed. There hasn't been a huge wave in support of gay marriage in CA because for the most part, the state was already in support of gay marriage.

    Prop 8 passed in 2008 because of the black turnout. They turned out in large numbers because of Obama and they're also anti-gay as a group. It is true that if you held the vote today it would probably be voted down because of the lower black turnout. However, if it was on the ballot again when a black was running for president it would probably pass again.


    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It was voted against in 2008. That is what we have been trying to tell you. Votes are meaningless in this debate when it comes to validity because they become outdated pretty shortly after they occur, particularly if they are taken on the cusp of an raising trend where the vote did not reflect that trend, but only by a small margin, which is exactly what happened with Prop 8. Basically it rode the very coattails of the downslide of support for banning same sex marriage in California public opinion and squeaked in at the right time. It likely would not have even passed a year later, let alone 5 years, as it has now been.

    The reason that it would be easier to get same sex marriage to pass in this state now is because of all the reasons we see the rising trend in same sex across the US. The majority of the opposition comes from two fronts, conservative Christians and older generations. Older generations naturally grow old and die. That is part of life. That dwindles those numbers at a pretty steady pace while the number of supporters for same sex marriage when it comes to voters each year because each year we have more people reaching voting age. There is also a slow decline in conservative Christians, especially those so fixed in their beliefs that they hold onto them despite changing opinion of the world around them.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Morton View Post
    Its only been 5 years. Not much has changed. There hasn't been a huge wave in support of gay marriage in CA because for the most part, the state was already in support of gay marriage.

    Prop 8 passed in 2008 because of the black turnout. They turned out in large numbers because of Obama and they're also anti-gay as a group. It is true that if you held the vote today it would probably be voted down because of the lower black turnout. However, if it was on the ballot again when a black was running for president it would probably pass again.
    Actually, the thought that Prop 8 passed because of the black turnout has been pretty much proven wrong.
    DoorQ.Com | REAL SCIENCE: Did African Americans Cause Prop 8 to Pass?
    But the notion that Prop 8 passed because of the Obama turnout surge is silly. Exit pollssuggest that first-time voters — the vast majority of whom were driven to turn out by Obama (he won 83 percent [!] of their votes) — voted against Prop 8 by a 62-38 margin. More experienced voters voted for the measure 56-44, however, providing for its passage. Now, it’s true that if new voters had voted against Prop 8 at the same rates that they voted for Obama, the measure probably would have failed. But that does not mean that the new voters were harmful on balance — they were helpful on balance. If California’s electorate had been the same as it was in 2004, Prop 8 would have passed by a wider margin.

    At the end of the day, Prop 8′s passage was more a generational matter than a racial one. If nobody over the age of 65 had voted, Prop 8 would have failed by a point or two. It appears that the generational splits may be larger within minority communities than among whites, although the data on this is sketchy.
    Prop 8 won because the prop-prop 8 side had a LOT of money from the catholic and mormon churches; plus, they were extremely well-organized. The anti-prop 8 side ran a lousy campaign, not thinking the ballot measure had a chance; by the time they got organized, they were outspent and out organized.

    There is no way that Prop 8 would pass if it was on the ballot today. The SSM side is more organized; people now know same sex couples and have realized that allowing it doesn't destroy society; people have seen it happening around the country; and I doubt the mormons would spend as much money nowadays on it (catholics still might, though)

    A Feb 2013 poll showed California for SSM 61% to 31%; no, that's not a vote, but it's a good indication that prop 8 would not pass if voted on today, regardless of who is on the presidential ballot.
    Same-sex marriage in California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In 2010, much less 5 years ago, the numbers were 46% favored, 44% opposed, so yes, there has been a dramatic shift (numbers from same wikipedia article as above)

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    I'll take the word of the LA Times over "The Gay SciFi, Fantasy and Horror Site".


    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Actually, the thought that Prop 8 passed because of the black turnout has been pretty much proven wrong.
    DoorQ.Com | REAL SCIENCE: Did African Americans Cause Prop 8 to Pass?


    Prop 8 won because the prop-prop 8 side had a LOT of money from the catholic and mormon churches; plus, they were extremely well-organized. The anti-prop 8 side ran a lousy campaign, not thinking the ballot measure had a chance; by the time they got organized, they were outspent and out organized.

    There is no way that Prop 8 would pass if it was on the ballot today. The SSM side is more organized; people now know same sex couples and have realized that allowing it doesn't destroy society; people have seen it happening around the country; and I doubt the mormons would spend as much money nowadays on it (catholics still might, though)

    A Feb 2013 poll showed California for SSM 61% to 31%; no, that's not a vote, but it's a good indication that prop 8 would not pass if voted on today, regardless of who is on the presidential ballot.
    Same-sex marriage in California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In 2010, much less 5 years ago, the numbers were 46% favored, 44% opposed, so yes, there has been a dramatic shift (numbers from same wikipedia article as above)

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Morton View Post
    I'll take the word of the LA Times over "The Gay SciFi, Fantasy and Horror Site".
    How about the word of several main stream media sources that say the same thing?

    How Proposition 8 passed in California — and why it wouldn’t today

    Including the LA times:

    Prop. 8 ruling parallels societal change - latimes.com

    This is what public opinion has been doing when it comes to same sex marriage throughout the US at least. The graph is easy to see and the shape would pretty much be the same for California, with the only differences being when the crossover happened and maybe some very small changes to the slopes of the lines.

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...it-means/?_r=0
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Morton View Post
    Prop 8 passed in 2008 because of the black turnout. They turned out in large numbers because of Obama and they're also anti-gay as a group. It is true that if you held the vote today it would probably be voted down because of the lower black turnout. However, if it was on the ballot again when a black was running for president it would probably pass again.

    African-American's voting in support of Prop 8 = 58%

    African-American's voting as a percentage of the vote in Prop 8 = 7%

    The meme that "it was blacks that passed Prop 8" is not true, actually they were 7th in line. Age, Party Affiliation, Political Leaning and Age were the highest indicators.

    The largest demographics were:

    Conservative = 82% (36% of vote count)
    Republican = 81% (34% of vote count)
    Weekly Religious Attendance = 70% (45% of vote count)
    65+ Age = 67% (23% of vote count)
    No Gay Family Members = 60% (26% of vote count)
    Hispanics = 59%% (14% of vote count)
    African-American = 58% (7% of vote count)


    http://www.thetaskforce.org/download...op8_1_6_09.pdf


    >>>>

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    The first article supports my point:

    The discrepancy? African American voters, who were overwhelmingly in favor of banning same sex marriage (70 percent supported Proposition 8) even as they supported Obama even more heavily (94 percent). And, to a lesser degree, Hispanic voters followed that same trend -- backing Prop. 8 by a 53 percent to 47 percent margin while giving President Obama 74 percent.


    The explanation? Many largely black churches supported Prop. 8 while Hispanics, a heavily Catholic community, were more naturally inclined to side with their faith -- and against gay marriage.

    The second article is an opinion piece and the NY Times blog (surprise!) only looks at first time voters.

    Nothing has been "debunked". Just opinions and strawman arguments

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    How about the word of several main stream media sources that say the same thing?

    How Proposition 8 passed in California — and why it wouldn’t today

    Including the LA times:

    Prop. 8 ruling parallels societal change - latimes.com

    This is what public opinion has been doing when it comes to same sex marriage throughout the US at least. The graph is easy to see and the shape would pretty much be the same for California, with the only differences being when the crossover happened and maybe some very small changes to the slopes of the lines.

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...it-means/?_r=0
    Last edited by Morton; 01-01-14 at 06:08 PM.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    The percentage of vote county doesn't consider voter turnout. With 58% of black support and the increase of voter turnout by black voters, you're going to have a skew in favor of prop 8. The fact that 82% of conservatives, for example, voted for it doesn't mean it swung the vote - especially in Ca.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    African-American's voting in support of Prop 8 = 58%

    African-American's voting as a percentage of the vote in Prop 8 = 7%

    The meme that "it was blacks that passed Prop 8" is not true, actually they were 7th in line. Age, Party Affiliation, Political Leaning and Age were the highest indicators.

    The largest demographics were:

    Conservative = 82% (36% of vote count)
    Republican = 81% (34% of vote count)
    Weekly Religious Attendance = 70% (45% of vote count)
    65+ Age = 67% (23% of vote count)
    No Gay Family Members = 60% (26% of vote count)
    Hispanics = 59%% (14% of vote count)
    African-American = 58% (7% of vote count)


    http://www.thetaskforce.org/download...op8_1_6_09.pdf


    >>>>

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