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Thread: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage[W:780]

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    I can observe the actual voting records, and polls can never counter a vote. One is proven, and it isn't the poll.
    Sure. But it also doesn't matter if SSM becomes legal through voting or through the courts or through the legislature - those are all valid ways for laws to get made...EXCEPT - people cannot vote to take away constitutional rights from other people; votes that do that are unconstitutional and cannot be upheld.

    You can vote all day long to ban left-handed people from marrying, but it's never going to be allowed to take effect.

    So it doesn't matter if SSM was from legislature or courts; it's still valid.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Sure. But it also doesn't matter if SSM becomes legal through voting or through the courts or through the legislature - those are all valid ways for laws to get made...EXCEPT - people cannot vote to take away constitutional rights from other people; votes that do that are unconstitutional and cannot be upheld.

    You can vote all day long to ban left-handed people from marrying, but it's never going to be allowed to take effect.

    So it doesn't matter if SSM was from legislature or courts; it's still valid.
    It matters if you claim to care about what the majority wants.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Republicans need for the Supreme Court to declare banning gay marriage unconstitutional to take that issue off the table. That still leaves immigration and abortion for them to conten

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    It matters if you claim to care about what the majority wants.
    Two different things here.

    1) a) can something become law by the legislature passing it without voters passing it? YES
    b) can courts uphold or invalidate laws, whether passed by the legislature or voters YES

    2) Does majority vote triumph over all? ONLY WHEN IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. What the majority wants is, of course, figured into who they vote into the legislature, who they vote into judgeships, and when they vote on referendums or initiatives. And of course majority vote is important. But - majority cannot take away rights from minorities.

    Do you really think it's ok for majority vote to overrule our federal constitution?

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Two different things here.

    1) a) can something become law by the legislature passing it without voters passing it? YES
    b) can courts uphold or invalidate laws, whether passed by the legislature or voters YES

    2) Does majority vote triumph over all? ONLY WHEN IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. What the majority wants is, of course, figured into who they vote into the legislature, who they vote into judgeships, and when they vote on referendums or initiatives. And of course majority vote is important. But - majority cannot take away rights from minorities.

    Do you really think it's ok for majority vote to overrule our federal constitution?
    That is great, but you claim the majority wants it. You claim it. I can show you they do not want it through votes, you can pretend they do with polls.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    That is great, but you claim the majority wants it. You claim it. I can show you they do not want it through votes, you can pretend they do with polls.

    If you can show that people NOW would vote the same as the people of a decade ago, please do.

    But what you have is a form of illogic based on historical actions, because something happened in the past does not mean the conditions that generated that outcome remain valid today. As a matter of fact voting trends during general elections have mirrored the trend line of polls on same sex Civil Marriage. Wide margins a decade ago, narrow victories of discriminatory laws in 2008/2009, narrow victories for Same-sex Civil Marriage in 2012.


    >>>>

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    If you can show that people NOW would vote the same as the people of a decade ago, please do.

    As a matter of fact voting trends during general elections have mirrored the trend line of polls on same sex Civil Marriage. Wide margins a decade ago, narrow victories of discriminatory laws in 2008/2009, narrow victories for Same-sex Civil Marriage in 2012.
    You can guess at their votes int he future, but we have recorded votes already. I have already said gay marriage is legally coming to all states eventually, just not yet, and not because of democratic votes (yet).

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Sure. But it also doesn't matter if SSM becomes legal through voting or through the courts or through the legislature - those are all valid ways for laws to get made...EXCEPT - people cannot vote to take away constitutional rights from other people; votes that do that are unconstitutional and cannot be upheld.

    You can vote all day long to ban left-handed people from marrying, but it's never going to be allowed to take effect.

    So it doesn't matter if SSM was from legislature or courts; it's still valid.

    Maybe the states believe there could be alot of Big Money in it for them
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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    You can guess at their votes int he future, but we have recorded votes already. I have already said gay marriage is legally coming to all states eventually, just not yet, and not because of democratic votes (yet).
    It already has come due to democratic votes now. Whether most of the time it was courts or not, doesn't really change the fact that it has already happened due to direct votes, considering most laws are supposed to be made by our representatives, not direct voting.

    We have recorded votes that tell us that the tide has turned. It is not the fault of history that bureaucracy works slower than the actual voting sentiment. If you took votes from all the states that currently have same sex marriage legal right now, the vast majority of those states would vote to simply keep it legal, even if it was a court ruling that made it legal to begin with. The same could not be said 50 years ago after the Loving ruling which struck down the interracial marriage bans of at least 15 states. The vast majority, if not all of those states, if given the chance to vote on it, would have voted to keep their interracial marriage bans in place. We know this because at least two states still had those bans on their books, despite efforts to change them in the past, up til the 90s (SC) and 2000 (AL). Another of those states (Miss) was polled about the issue after the turn of this century and it was found that the majority of people would still vote to not allow interracial marriages by law.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It already has come due to democratic votes now. Whether most of the time it was courts or not, doesn't really change the fact that it has already happened due to direct votes, considering most laws are supposed to be made by our representatives, not direct voting.

    If you took votes from all the states that currently have same sex marriage legal right now, the vast majority of those states would vote to simply keep it legal, even if it was a court ruling that made it legal to begin with.
    Direct vote is the issue being put up for a vote. This has happened 4 times.

    California?

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