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Thread: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage[W:780]

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Legal birth certificates are issued by each state, as are adoption records. The state must recognize the parents as the legal parents of a child for them to be considered legal family.

    Now, with genetic testing, we have additional means of establishing parenthood in some cases, but it can be legally restricted or even removed with legal paperwork. You cannot simply claim a child as your own and expect to hold legal say and/or custody over that child. The state is involved.
    A birth certificate or an adoption is irrelevant of the state. I am not referencing legal anything.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    In general.
    Fair enough... as long as it is equal treatment.
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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Fair enough... as long as it is equal treatment.
    No state involved. Equal.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    A birth certificate or an adoption is irrelevant of the state. I am not referencing legal anything.
    This entire discussion is about legal marriage. So yes, you are discussing legal things here. And yes, birth certificates and adoptions are completely relevant to the state. A child is recognized as the legal relative, legal child of the person/persons on their birth certificate and/or adoption papers first, although other legal paperwork can counter these. And a person's legal spouse is the person on the marriage license with them (unless countered by other paperwork, aka a divorce).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This entire discussion is about legal marriage. So yes, you are discussing legal things here. And yes, birth certificates and adoptions are completely relevant to the state. A child is recognized as the legal relative, legal child of the person/persons on their birth certificate and/or adoption papers first, although other legal paperwork can counter these. And a person's legal spouse is the person on the marriage license with them (unless countered by other paperwork, aka a divorce).
    Marriage can only be "illegal" with the state involved.

    Birth certificates and adoptions require no state, but legal related ones do.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    Marriage can only be "illegal" with the state involved.

    Birth certificates and adoptions require no state, but legal related ones do.
    You are completely wrong. Birth certificates and adoptions require state recognition. Otherwise, the state will come in and take the children away. There must be something through the state that says you have custody of the children you are raising. It sounds horrible and wrong, but it is true. It is part of the world we live in, even if most people cannot see it or don't want to recognize it. When it comes to children, there is an advantage to having genetic testing to show that a child is your biological child, but that doesn't make it absolute. The state can take a parent's claim to a child from them if the person is shown to be harmful to the child. And adoptions involve the state massively, even if private. The paperwork is all legal and if challenged would go through the court, an arm of the government. And without legal paperwork, the state can come and take children, especially children not biologically the person's/people's away from them. The kinship of child/parent is a legal recognition. You must in fact demonstrate this legal kinship throughout your child's life if you interact with the government at all, including getting the child an education (that isn't homeschooling), getting the child healthcare, paying taxes, or many other things. This is done through birth certificates and/or adoption paperwork, along with additional paperwork for certain circumstances.

    The same goes for recognition of a spouse as a legal kin. If you wish to have your spouse receive any recognition from the government, then you must show that you are legally connected to that person, via a marriage license.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are completely wrong. Birth certificates and adoptions require state recognition.

    Otherwise, the state will come in and take the children away. There must be something through the state that says you have custody of the children you are raising. It sounds horrible and wrong, but it is true. It is part of the world we live in, even if most people cannot see it or don't want to recognize it. When it comes to children, there is an advantage to having genetic testing to show that a child is your biological child, but that doesn't make it absolute. The state can take a parent's claim to a child from them if the person is shown to be harmful to the child. And adoptions involve the state massively, even if private. The paperwork is all legal and if challenged would go through the court, an arm of the government. And without legal paperwork, the state can come and take children, especially children not biologically the person's/people's away from them. The kinship of child/parent is a legal recognition. You must in fact demonstrate this legal kinship throughout your child's life if you interact with the government at all, including getting the child an education (that isn't homeschooling), getting the child healthcare, paying taxes, or many other things. This is done through birth certificates and/or adoption paperwork, along with additional paperwork for certain circumstances.

    The same goes for recognition of a spouse as a legal kin. If you wish to have your spouse receive any recognition from the government, then you must show that you are legally connected to that person, via a marriage license.
    You mean state birth certificates and state adoptions.

    Within the state, sure.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    Marriage can only be "illegal" with the state involved.
    SSM can only be illegal with the state involved

    Glad to see that you support SSM
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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    You mean state birth certificates and state adoptions.

    Within the state, sure.
    As I said, if the state does not recognize your claim to a child, they will eventually take custody of that child until some legal recognition can be made. You are not allowed to raise a child that you have no legal claim over. Perhaps that claim will be made through a blood test, but even then, it would require paperwork and most likely some sort of ruling by a court to establish.

    The fact is that adoption records and birth certificates or some other legal paperwork is how you legally establish a legal kinship to your children or children you are raising/have custody of. That is legally how it works.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    As I said, if the state does not recognize your claim to a child, they will eventually take custody of that child until some legal recognition can be made. You are not allowed to raise a child that you have no legal claim over. Perhaps that claim will be made through a blood test, but even then, it would require paperwork and most likely some sort of ruling by a court to establish.

    The fact is that adoption records and birth certificates or some other legal paperwork is how you legally establish a legal kinship to your children or children you are raising/have custody of. That is legally how it works.
    Sure, but that only is within the state, not outside of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    SSM can only be illegal with the state involved

    Glad to see that you support SSM
    Non-state marriages, sure.

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