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Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage[W:780]

Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Marriage can only be "illegal" with the state involved.

Birth certificates and adoptions require no state, but legal related ones do.
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You are completely wrong. Birth certificates and adoptions require state recognition. Otherwise, the state will come in and take the children away. There must be something through the state that says you have custody of the children you are raising. It sounds horrible and wrong, but it is true. It is part of the world we live in, even if most people cannot see it or don't want to recognize it. When it comes to children, there is an advantage to having genetic testing to show that a child is your biological child, but that doesn't make it absolute. The state can take a parent's claim to a child from them if the person is shown to be harmful to the child. And adoptions involve the state massively, even if private. The paperwork is all legal and if challenged would go through the court, an arm of the government. And without legal paperwork, the state can come and take children, especially children not biologically the person's/people's away from them. The kinship of child/parent is a legal recognition. You must in fact demonstrate this legal kinship throughout your child's life if you interact with the government at all, including getting the child an education (that isn't homeschooling), getting the child healthcare, paying taxes, or many other things. This is done through birth certificates and/or adoption paperwork, along with additional paperwork for certain circumstances.

The same goes for recognition of a spouse as a legal kin. If you wish to have your spouse receive any recognition from the government, then you must show that you are legally connected to that person, via a marriage license.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
You are completely wrong. Birth certificates and adoptions require state recognition.

Otherwise, the state will come in and take the children away. There must be something through the state that says you have custody of the children you are raising. It sounds horrible and wrong, but it is true. It is part of the world we live in, even if most people cannot see it or don't want to recognize it. When it comes to children, there is an advantage to having genetic testing to show that a child is your biological child, but that doesn't make it absolute. The state can take a parent's claim to a child from them if the person is shown to be harmful to the child. And adoptions involve the state massively, even if private. The paperwork is all legal and if challenged would go through the court, an arm of the government. And without legal paperwork, the state can come and take children, especially children not biologically the person's/people's away from them. The kinship of child/parent is a legal recognition. You must in fact demonstrate this legal kinship throughout your child's life if you interact with the government at all, including getting the child an education (that isn't homeschooling), getting the child healthcare, paying taxes, or many other things. This is done through birth certificates and/or adoption paperwork, along with additional paperwork for certain circumstances.

The same goes for recognition of a spouse as a legal kin. If you wish to have your spouse receive any recognition from the government, then you must show that you are legally connected to that person, via a marriage license.
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You mean state birth certificates and state adoptions.

Within the state, sure.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Marriage can only be "illegal" with the state involved.
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SSM can only be illegal with the state involved

Glad to see that you support SSM
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
You mean state birth certificates and state adoptions.

Within the state, sure.
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As I said, if the state does not recognize your claim to a child, they will eventually take custody of that child until some legal recognition can be made. You are not allowed to raise a child that you have no legal claim over. Perhaps that claim will be made through a blood test, but even then, it would require paperwork and most likely some sort of ruling by a court to establish.

The fact is that adoption records and birth certificates or some other legal paperwork is how you legally establish a legal kinship to your children or children you are raising/have custody of. That is legally how it works.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
As I said, if the state does not recognize your claim to a child, they will eventually take custody of that child until some legal recognition can be made. You are not allowed to raise a child that you have no legal claim over. Perhaps that claim will be made through a blood test, but even then, it would require paperwork and most likely some sort of ruling by a court to establish.

The fact is that adoption records and birth certificates or some other legal paperwork is how you legally establish a legal kinship to your children or children you are raising/have custody of. That is legally how it works.
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Sure, but that only is within the state, not outside of it.

sangha said:
SSM can only be illegal with the state involved

Glad to see that you support SSM
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Non-state marriages, sure.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Sure, but that only is within the state, not outside of it.

Non-state marriages, sure.
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No, it is within all states. I have birth certificates for my children from Hawaii and NC. Those are recognized by the state of California where I currently live. They are also recognized by the federal government, since my husband and I are both military.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
No, it is within all states. I have birth certificates for my children from Hawaii and NC. Those are recognized by the state of California where I currently live. They are also recognized by the federal government, since my husband and I are both military.
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Within a state would be within a state.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Within a state would be within a state.
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You are not making any sense. The states all recognize birth certificates from other states (and most do from other countries as well). Those birth certificates are what establish a legal kinship. It is no different than a marriage license. My marriage took place in Virginia, despite living in Hawaii at the time and moving to different states since then, all of which recognize my legal kinship as spouse to my husband established by that legal marriage license from VA. It is all about legal recognition of a legal kinship, which involves some sort of legal paperwork.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
You are not making any sense. The states all recognize birth certificates from other states (and most do from other countries as well). Those birth certificates are what establish a legal kinship. It is no different than a marriage license. My marriage took place in Virginia, despite living in Hawaii at the time and moving to different states since then, all of which recognize my legal kinship as spouse to my husband established by that legal marriage license from VA. It is all about legal recognition of a legal kinship, which involves some sort of legal paperwork.
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If I say outside the state that does not mean in another state.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
If I say outside the state that does not mean in another state.
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If you are talking about outside the US, then it really isn't relevant to our current discussion, which is about US laws and recognition of kinship.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
If you are talking about outside the US, then it really isn't relevant to our current discussion, which is about US laws and recognition of kinship.
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Outside of any state.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Outside of any state.
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What are you talking about? I said that you should not support birth certificates or adoption papers if you feel the state should be out of marriage completely. Why? Because birth certificates and adoption paperwork perform the same function as marriage licenses do, just for a different type of relationship. Whereas marriage licenses set up a legal kinship between spouses, both birth certificates and adoption papers set up a legal kinship between parents and children. All these legal forms are used to set up state recognition of personal relationships, legal kinships for legal purposes. They serve purpose on a personal level or outside any state or country, entity that refuses to recognize them as legal. On a personal level, a person can claim anyone as their spouse or even their child. My parents both claim my best friend as their daughter, as my siblings and I claim her as a sister. Doesn't mean there is any legal connection there.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
What are you talking about? I said that you should not support birth certificates or adoption papers if you feel the state should be out of marriage completely. Why? Because birth certificates and adoption paperwork perform the same function as marriage licenses do, just for a different type of relationship. Whereas marriage licenses set up a legal kinship between spouses, both birth certificates and adoption papers set up a legal kinship between parents and children. All these legal forms are used to set up state recognition of personal relationships, legal kinships for legal purposes. They serve purpose on a personal level or outside any state or country, entity that refuses to recognize them as legal. On a personal level, a person can claim anyone as their spouse or even their child. My parents both claim my best friend as their daughter, as my siblings and I claim her as a sister. Doesn't mean there is any legal connection there.
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I can support non-state adoptions, for example, because the state is not required for an adoption to exist.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I can support non-state adoptions, for example, because the state is not required for an adoption to exist.
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For the adoption to be legally recognized by the state, then yes the state is required for the adoption to exist. We are discussing legal recognition of kinship (since that is what this really is about when it comes to legal recognition of marriages), which means that people doing things illegally, such as going to another country and simply bringing home a child from that country, without any legal paperwork (assuming the child was allowed into our country to begin with without that legal paperwork proving adoption) whoever brought that child here would not have a legal claim over them. To claim them on taxes, they would need an SSN, which means needing legal paperwork. To have them covered under healthcare that the adult has or is trying to get, they need a SSN and likely a birth certificate. To enter school, a legal relationship has to be proven along with legal custody of that child. A legal relationship must be established in order for a parent/child relationship to be recognized legally within the US.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
For the adoption to be legally recognized by the state, then yes the state is required for the adoption to exist. We are discussing legal recognition of kinship (since that is what this really is about when it comes to legal recognition of marriages), which means that people doing things illegally, such as going to another country and simply bringing home a child from that country, without any legal paperwork (assuming the child was allowed into our country to begin with without that legal paperwork proving adoption) whoever brought that child here would not have a legal claim over them. To claim them on taxes, they would need an SSN, which means needing legal paperwork. To have them covered under healthcare that the adult has or is trying to get, they need a SSN and likely a birth certificate. To enter school, a legal relationship has to be proven along with legal custody of that child. A legal relationship must be established in order for a parent/child relationship to be recognized legally within the US.
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Sure, the state must approve of all state specific situations.

sangha said:
So states should not be involved in marriage, but when states are involved in marriage, it's OK
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I support no state intervention. But if you are asking me a question with the premise that the state must exist (which you are), then states will do what they do -- regulate and punish based upon morality.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I support no state intervention. But if you are asking me a question with the premise that the state must exist (which you are), then states will do what they do -- regulate and punish based upon morality.
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You are lying. I never said the state must exist.

You have been clear. Any state intervention in marriage is wrong.

Unless the state is banning SSM. Then, state intervention is OK
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

sangha said:
I never said the state must exist.
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Then I support no state intervention into any marriage.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

sangha said:
Then you oppose the state banning SSM.

Except you don't
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I oppose state intervention, yes.

Except you are wrong.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Most theories of anarchy are formed around the idea that society governs itself. Many anarchist systems still have some sort of way to deal with aggressive acts. Take for example anarcho-capitalism that actually accept collective defense of individual liberty insofar as such groups are formed and paid for on an explicitly voluntary basis. These systems are not to be government run of course, but open to competition to lower cost and only protect against aggression of your natural rights. The society themselves, not the individual competitors or a ruling body would come up with the rules, not laws, to govern what is aggression. I'm not defending it of course, but as you can see society in this system comes up with the rules to govern themselves. The idea is almost exclusively mounted on the idea of self governance.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

sangha said:
So you oppose state bans on SSM
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I oppose state intervention into any marriage. What part is hard for you to understand?
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I oppose state intervention into any marriage. What part is hard for you to understand?
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You oppose the state intervening to ban SSM

Except you don't
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

sangha said:
You oppose the state intervening to ban SSM

Except you don't
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I oppose state intervention into marriage

Except you are wrong.
 
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