• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

If (Christianity is true) {
then it will never disappear
} else {
it will disappear
}


In my opinion Christianity is true; and Jesus warned people that until his return his followers would be hated, reviled and lied about.

History proves that Jesus words were accurate.

What an interesting concept: the 'founder' of a belief you could say, rather than being a 'superhero' type was an extremely humble man who said "the world hates me and will hate you"

Very interesting, there is nothing like it.

So combine that oddity with Jesus Sermon on the Mount (matthew 5-7) and I don't see how you can deny that this man was indeed sent by the creator.

Christianity flourishes under oppression, and we're entering a new age of anti-Christian oppression we haven't seen since ~300 AD (Diocletian / etc)

Either: A) we're getting very close to Christ's return or B) Christianity will be oppressed and then flourish again
 
Last edited:
Gardener said:
You are obviously know nothing of the history or demographics of the region, so I expect you have absolutely no idea that Lebanon, for instance, was set up initially with a Christian majority, but were you to ever get past your 8th grade understanding of the world, you might come to realize that Islam dominates in increasing sections of the world where it did not dominate previously. Sure, you know only so much about things so as to know what you are expected to defend in order to be conformist, but the truth of the matter says otherwise.
Click to expand...

I think you need to cool the rhetoric and personal attacks, kid. My issue here is with the not so subtle language implying that Islam is somehow invading the Christian world. I'm aware of Lebanon's history. People are free to choose the religion they want to worship. If Islam is making inroads in places where it wasn't before, then maybe that's at least partly to do with it increasing in popularity.

Americans don't complain when Christian missionaries try to convert people in regions where Christianity has traditionally had little place. The Abrahamic faiths have been like feuding siblings for centuries. It's all tit for tat non-sense.
 
Um... good?
 
Hmm are the Byzantine Emperors asking for assistance from the Catholic West again? Guess its time for another Crusader to drive back those damn Turks.
 
Northern Light said:
I think you need to cool the rhetoric and personal attacks, kid. My issue here is with the not so subtle language implying that Islam is somehow invading the Christian world. I'm aware of Lebanon's history. People are free to choose the religion they want to worship. If Islam is making inroads in places where it wasn't before, then maybe that's at least partly to do with it increasing in popularity.

Americans don't complain when Christian missionaries try to convert people in regions where Christianity has traditionally had little place. The Abrahamic faiths have been like feuding siblings for centuries. It's all tit for tat non-sense.
Click to expand...

The issue under discussion isn't the success of Christian or Muslim evangelism and conversion, it is that Christian communities (among other religious minorities like the Yezidi in Iraq) are under increasing pressure from violent groups that have carried out gruesome attacks. These attacks and a rising sense of organized persecution have put thousands to flight and threaten ancient communities. You don't have to believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah (he wasn't) to think this is a moral evil.
 
Grant said:
The Middle East, the home of Judaism and Christianity, has been taken over by Muslims. Doesn't that tell you who is expanding their borders and taking over the region? We can only imagine at what a hospitable and democratic place the Mid East would be if Christianity had remained in place.
Click to expand...

The Middle East is also the home of Islam. You know who's "expanding their borders and taking over the region"? Nobody. What borders have changed?
 
Sherman123 said:
The issue under discussion isn't the success of Christian or Muslim evangelism and conversion, it is that Christian communities (among other religious minorities like the Yezidi in Iraq) are under increasing pressure from violent groups that have carried out gruesome attacks. These attacks and a rising sense of organized persecution have put thousands to flight and threaten ancient communities. You don't have to believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah (he wasn't) to think this is a moral evil.
Click to expand...

It's not really religion fueling those attacks, anymore than it's religion fueling the war on terror. It's politics. There are millions of peaceful followers of both faiths worldwide, many of whom condemn such attacks. But because culture, religion, and nationalism are so intertwined in these quasi-theocratic states, it's easy for certain western media outlets to twist it into being a religious war. It's not.

As I said before, many regions had Christians and Muslims peacefully co-existing in the Middle East (i.e. Azerbejan, which even has Buddhists) but once the war on terror started it all became conflated. The same happened in Asia prior to the opium wars. Christians were allowed in but were quickly demonized once the politics took a sour turn.

People need to stop making this about religion when it's about politics.
 
Northern Light said:
It's not really religion fueling those attacks, anymore than it's religion fueling the war on terror. It's politics. There are millions of peaceful followers of both faiths worldwide, many of whom condemn such attacks. But because culture, religion, and nationalism are so intertwined in these quasi-theocratic states, it's easy for certain western media outlets to twist it into being a religious war. It's not.

As I said before, many regions had Christians and Muslims peacefully co-existing in the Middle East (i.e. Azerbejan, which even has Buddhists) but once the war on terror started it all became conflated. The same happened in Asia prior to the opium wars. Christians were allowed in but were quickly demonized once the politics took a sour turn.

People need to stop making this about religion when it's about politics.
Click to expand...

Of course there is religion plays a role in fueling these attacks. What are you talking about? These are clearly identifiable groups with similarly transparent objectives and motivations. For the groups, mobs, and communities committing and sanctioning these attacks there is an obvious religions component and it is deplorable. These communities that end up being victimized are usually small, isolated, and politically influential. Take the Yezedi in Iraq, this ancient religious group was essentially driven out of Iraq and into the KRG by al-Qaeda and affiliated Islamist militias have a series of massive bombings killed 796 of them on August 14th 2007 in what remains one of the worst single acts of inter-communal violence in history. They weren't targeted for political reasons anymore then the small Christian or Kurdish village in Syria is, they are targeted for violence and pogroms because empowered militant groups with a political and religious agenda see them as enemies of their proposed social and political order.

As for places like Azerbaijan it's very difficult to compare a post-Soviet authoritarian republic with other regions of the world. Azerbaijan is a country run by an authoritarian strongman with a personality cult. The Aliyev family and their security apparatus have worked hard to stoke an intense nationalist ferment over Nagorno and similar issues to distract from their nearly 20 year rule. They crackdown heavily on many 'non-traditional' religious groups because of their perceived independence from the state. Though this often includes Islamic clerics that do not tow the government line. Azerbaijan was a police state before 9/11 and it remains one after 9/11.

Claiming that this is all because of the 'War on Terror' is not just a bad answer, it is a remarkably insincere one.
 
Imo, all major religions are a complete and total waste of time.

Merry Christmas
 
Sherman123 said:
Of course there is religion plays a role in fueling these attacks. What are you talking about? These are clearly identifiable groups with similarly transparent objectives and motivations. For the groups, mobs, and communities committing and sanctioning these attacks there is an obvious religions component and it is deplorable. These communities that end up being victimized are usually small, isolated, and politically influential. Take the Yezedi in Iraq, this ancient religious group was essentially driven out of Iraq and into the KRG by al-Qaeda and affiliated Islamist militias have a series of massive bombings killed 796 of them on August 14th 2007 in what remains one of the worst single acts of inter-communal violence in history. They weren't targeted for political reasons anymore then the small Christian or Kurdish village in Syria is, they are targeted for violence and pogroms because empowered militant groups with a political and religious agenda see them as enemies of their proposed social and political order.

As for places like Azerbaijan it's very difficult to compare a post-Soviet authoritarian republic with other regions of the world. Azerbaijan is a country run by an authoritarian strongman with a personality cult. The Aliyev family and their security apparatus have worked hard to stoke an intense nationalist ferment over Nagorno and similar issues to distract from their nearly 20 year rule. They crackdown heavily on many 'non-traditional' religious groups because of their perceived independence from the state. Though this often includes Islamic clerics that do not tow the government line. Azerbaijan was a police state before 9/11 and it remains one after 9/11.

Claiming that this is all because of the 'War on Terror' is not just a bad answer, it is a remarkably insincere one.
Click to expand...

I don't think you're really getting the crux of my argument here because you keep creating elaborate tangents. I'll try again.

That's all good and well, but you still need to separate political religion from individual religious faith. When you make sweeping generalizations about Islam taking over Christianity it implies that Islam is a monolithic power similar to a nation state, when it's not. Islam is as diverse as Christianity, with its moderates and extremists, spread over different nations, regionalities, and tribal alliances. Not to mention there are many wars happening right now which are causing social turmoil.

The short end of what I'm trying to say is that the region is in such flux right now that you can't just say Islam is displacing Christianity. If there is hatred toward Christians that was already in the region, even in a subliminal way, it has only been amplified by nations with high Judeochristian populations waging multiple wars on them. Again, it has little to do with religion, but if you hate your enemy then you will hate everything that comes attached to them, including what you perceive to be their faith.

Agreed, religion plays a role, but how much of a role is debatable when considering many other confounding variables. What has changed between the 90's and now that is making more Christians be forced out than ever? Ask yourself that. There's nothing insincere about interrogating the popular anti-Muslim dialogue which tends to be so black and white (just as black and white as pro-Muslim positions).

What's happening here is what happens everywhere on DP, I'm being labeled as being one side or the other and then all ears become deaf to whatever else I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to mislead anyone, so cool the personal rhetoric. It's not my humanity on the line here, it's my argument. :roll:
 
Kobie said:
The Middle East is also the home of Islam.
Click to expand...
Yes, 700 years or so later. Then they took over through bloodshed and intimidation, which is still their policy.
You know who's "expanding their borders and taking over the region"? Nobody. What borders have changed?
Click to expand...
Are you saying that Islam is not taking complete control of the ME with other religions being forced out? Islam is becoming international and it's done largely through violence and intimidation. That's hardly open to dispute.
 
Last edited:
Northern Light said:
I think you need to cool the rhetoric and personal attacks, kid. My issue here is with the not so subtle language implying that Islam is somehow invading the Christian world.
Click to expand...
You believe it is not?
People are free to choose the religion they want to worship. If Islam is making inroads in places where it wasn't before, then maybe that's at least partly to do with it increasing in popularity.
Click to expand...
People are not free to choose their religion in Islamic countries. Your claim is ludicrous.

Americans don't complain when Christian missionaries try to convert people in regions where Christianity has traditionally had little place. The Abrahamic faiths have been like feuding siblings for centuries. It's all tit for tat non-sense.
Click to expand...
No, it is not. There are Muslims murdering innocents around the world, denying education to females, hanging Gays, stoning adulterous women despite them having been raped, and so on. It is a primitive religion designed for primitive minds.
 
Wiseone said:
Hmm are the Byzantine Emperors asking for assistance from the Catholic West again? Guess its time for another Crusader to drive back those damn Turks.
Click to expand...
Are you familiar with the Crusades? Or why the area is no longer Christian?
 
Northern Light said:
It's not really religion fueling those attacks, anymore than it's religion fueling the war on terror. It's politics. There are millions of peaceful followers of both faiths worldwide, many of whom condemn such attacks. But because culture, religion, and nationalism are so intertwined in these quasi-theocratic states, it's easy for certain western media outlets to twist it into being a religious war. It's not.People need to stop making this about religion when it's about politics.
Click to expand...
Whenever Muslims commit their acts of terror they tend to shout 'Allah Akbar' as their final words, not 'Vote For the Freedom From Religion' party.

As I said before, many regions had Christians and Muslims peacefully co-existing in the Middle East (i.e. Azerbejan, which even has Buddhists) but once the war on terror started it all became conflated. The same happened in Asia prior to the opium wars. Christians were allowed in but were quickly demonized once the politics took a sour turn.
Click to expand...
When does your sense of history begin?
 
Northern Light said:
I don't think you're really getting the crux of my argument here because you keep creating elaborate tangents. I'll try again.

That's all good and well, but you still need to separate political religion from individual religious faith. When you make sweeping generalizations about Islam taking over Christianity it implies that Islam is a monolithic power similar to a nation state, when it's not. Islam is as diverse as Christianity, with its moderates and extremists, spread over different nations, regionalities, and tribal alliances. Not to mention there are many wars happening right now which are causing social turmoil.

The short end of what I'm trying to say is that the region is in such flux right now that you can't just say Islam is displacing Christianity. If there is hatred toward Christians that was already in the region, even in a subliminal way, it has only been amplified by nations with high Judeochristian populations waging multiple wars on them. Again, it has little to do with religion, but if you hate your enemy then you will hate everything that comes attached to them, including what you perceive to be their faith.

Agreed, religion plays a role, but how much of a role is debatable when considering many other confounding variables. What has changed between the 90's and now that is making more Christians be forced out than ever? Ask yourself that. There's nothing insincere about interrogating the popular anti-Muslim dialogue which tends to be so black and white (just as black and white as pro-Muslim positions).

What's happening here is what happens everywhere on DP, I'm being labeled as being one side or the other and then all ears become deaf to whatever else I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to mislead anyone, so cool the personal rhetoric. It's not my humanity on the line here, it's my argument. :roll:
Click to expand...

1. The OP and initial link did not make sweeping generalizations about Islam 'overtaking Christianity' the criticism and concern was directed very specifically at religious and communal persecution that threatens to extinguish ancient communities. I'm not the one going on a tangent--you are. We aren't arguing about whether Islam is diverse, whether there are moderates and extremists, or anything like that. Not only have you been completely unwilling to defend your arguments you're also making a strawman.

2. To say that 'well even if there is antipathy and persecution towards Christians it's all the Wests fault' isn't just masochistic it's wrong. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding for the region. These groups are not being targeted for any especial political reason unless you have one you'd care to share. By and large they are incapable of contesting control of any of the countries they reside in due to their small population, the communities that actually get victimized are the more isolated and insular (rural Christian towns in Syria, Coptic ghettos in Egypt, and Yezedi villages in Iraq are examples), and destroying them serves no discernible practical purpose. They are targeted because for the Islamist groups, the criminal gangs, and riotous mobs in question they are an object of hatred and ill-fitting pieces in their ideal political society.

3. I'm not sure how much you need to debate the issue. Religious tendencies play a palpably massive role. Otherwise these communities would never be targeted. They are targets of choice, not targets of necessity.

4. What has changed has already been explained. The waxing of Islamist groups has been a regional phenomena, autocratic regimes that used to hold these groups in check have been severely weakened (a la Egypt, Syria, Iraq), and a multitude of regional conflicts has fueled violence and instability.

5. You aren't being labeled. You are being refuted.

Edit: A classic and sad example occurred this evening as 12 Iraqi Christians were killed in a suicide bombing while celebrating Christmas. What is the reason for taking the effort of expending resources to target the few Christians who still live in Baghdad? We know the answer because the militants have told us as much: they hate them. Just like they hate the Yezedi's, the Mandeans, and secularized Kurds.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25514687
 
Last edited:
Grant said:
Yes, 700 years or so later. Then they took over through bloodshed and intimidation, which is still their policy.

Are you saying that Islam is not taking complete control of the ME with other religions being forced out? Islam is becoming international and it's done largely through violence and intimidation. That's hardly open to dispute.
Click to expand...

No, he is shrugging his shoulders and saying that "eh, who cares, it's only Christians"....A deplorable, and willful ignoring of atrocity.
 
j-mac said:
No, he is shrugging his shoulders and saying that "eh, who cares, it's only Christians"....A deplorable, and willful ignoring of atrocity.
Click to expand...

I am? Wow, thanks for the gift of words in my mouth on this Christmas afternoon.
 
I tried. :shrug:
 
Grant said:
Trying to substantiate your feelings without using any factual support usually ends in failure.
Click to expand...

Whatever makes you feel good about yourself. :shrug:
 
Sherman123 said:
Edit: A classic and sad example occurred this evening as 12 Iraqi Christians were killed in a suicide bombing while celebrating Christmas. What is the reason for taking the effort of expending resources to target the few Christians who still live in Baghdad? We know the answer because the militants have told us as much: they hate them. Just like they hate the Yezedi's, the Mandeans, and secularized Kurds.

BBC News - Christian areas hit by Baghdad bombs
Click to expand...

And of course they hate the Jews as well. It's Islam all day, every day, and no other religious are welcome.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom