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Thread: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    The Middle East is also the home of Islam.
    Yes, 700 years or so later. Then they took over through bloodshed and intimidation, which is still their policy.
    You know who's "expanding their borders and taking over the region"? Nobody. What borders have changed?
    Are you saying that Islam is not taking complete control of the ME with other religions being forced out? Islam is becoming international and it's done largely through violence and intimidation. That's hardly open to dispute.
    Last edited by Grant; 12-25-13 at 04:52 AM.

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    I think you need to cool the rhetoric and personal attacks, kid. My issue here is with the not so subtle language implying that Islam is somehow invading the Christian world.
    You believe it is not?
    People are free to choose the religion they want to worship. If Islam is making inroads in places where it wasn't before, then maybe that's at least partly to do with it increasing in popularity.
    People are not free to choose their religion in Islamic countries. Your claim is ludicrous.

    Americans don't complain when Christian missionaries try to convert people in regions where Christianity has traditionally had little place. The Abrahamic faiths have been like feuding siblings for centuries. It's all tit for tat non-sense.
    No, it is not. There are Muslims murdering innocents around the world, denying education to females, hanging Gays, stoning adulterous women despite them having been raped, and so on. It is a primitive religion designed for primitive minds.

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Hmm are the Byzantine Emperors asking for assistance from the Catholic West again? Guess its time for another Crusader to drive back those damn Turks.
    Are you familiar with the Crusades? Or why the area is no longer Christian?

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    It's not really religion fueling those attacks, anymore than it's religion fueling the war on terror. It's politics. There are millions of peaceful followers of both faiths worldwide, many of whom condemn such attacks. But because culture, religion, and nationalism are so intertwined in these quasi-theocratic states, it's easy for certain western media outlets to twist it into being a religious war. It's not.People need to stop making this about religion when it's about politics.
    Whenever Muslims commit their acts of terror they tend to shout 'Allah Akbar' as their final words, not 'Vote For the Freedom From Religion' party.

    As I said before, many regions had Christians and Muslims peacefully co-existing in the Middle East (i.e. Azerbejan, which even has Buddhists) but once the war on terror started it all became conflated. The same happened in Asia prior to the opium wars. Christians were allowed in but were quickly demonized once the politics took a sour turn.
    When does your sense of history begin?

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    I don't think you're really getting the crux of my argument here because you keep creating elaborate tangents. I'll try again.

    That's all good and well, but you still need to separate political religion from individual religious faith. When you make sweeping generalizations about Islam taking over Christianity it implies that Islam is a monolithic power similar to a nation state, when it's not. Islam is as diverse as Christianity, with its moderates and extremists, spread over different nations, regionalities, and tribal alliances. Not to mention there are many wars happening right now which are causing social turmoil.

    The short end of what I'm trying to say is that the region is in such flux right now that you can't just say Islam is displacing Christianity. If there is hatred toward Christians that was already in the region, even in a subliminal way, it has only been amplified by nations with high Judeochristian populations waging multiple wars on them. Again, it has little to do with religion, but if you hate your enemy then you will hate everything that comes attached to them, including what you perceive to be their faith.

    Agreed, religion plays a role, but how much of a role is debatable when considering many other confounding variables. What has changed between the 90's and now that is making more Christians be forced out than ever? Ask yourself that. There's nothing insincere about interrogating the popular anti-Muslim dialogue which tends to be so black and white (just as black and white as pro-Muslim positions).

    What's happening here is what happens everywhere on DP, I'm being labeled as being one side or the other and then all ears become deaf to whatever else I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to mislead anyone, so cool the personal rhetoric. It's not my humanity on the line here, it's my argument.
    1. The OP and initial link did not make sweeping generalizations about Islam 'overtaking Christianity' the criticism and concern was directed very specifically at religious and communal persecution that threatens to extinguish ancient communities. I'm not the one going on a tangent--you are. We aren't arguing about whether Islam is diverse, whether there are moderates and extremists, or anything like that. Not only have you been completely unwilling to defend your arguments you're also making a strawman.

    2. To say that 'well even if there is antipathy and persecution towards Christians it's all the Wests fault' isn't just masochistic it's wrong. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding for the region. These groups are not being targeted for any especial political reason unless you have one you'd care to share. By and large they are incapable of contesting control of any of the countries they reside in due to their small population, the communities that actually get victimized are the more isolated and insular (rural Christian towns in Syria, Coptic ghettos in Egypt, and Yezedi villages in Iraq are examples), and destroying them serves no discernible practical purpose. They are targeted because for the Islamist groups, the criminal gangs, and riotous mobs in question they are an object of hatred and ill-fitting pieces in their ideal political society.

    3. I'm not sure how much you need to debate the issue. Religious tendencies play a palpably massive role. Otherwise these communities would never be targeted. They are targets of choice, not targets of necessity.

    4. What has changed has already been explained. The waxing of Islamist groups has been a regional phenomena, autocratic regimes that used to hold these groups in check have been severely weakened (a la Egypt, Syria, Iraq), and a multitude of regional conflicts has fueled violence and instability.

    5. You aren't being labeled. You are being refuted.

    Edit: A classic and sad example occurred this evening as 12 Iraqi Christians were killed in a suicide bombing while celebrating Christmas. What is the reason for taking the effort of expending resources to target the few Christians who still live in Baghdad? We know the answer because the militants have told us as much: they hate them. Just like they hate the Yezedi's, the Mandeans, and secularized Kurds.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25514687
    Last edited by Sherman123; 12-25-13 at 05:43 AM.

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, 700 years or so later. Then they took over through bloodshed and intimidation, which is still their policy.

    Are you saying that Islam is not taking complete control of the ME with other religions being forced out? Islam is becoming international and it's done largely through violence and intimidation. That's hardly open to dispute.
    No, he is shrugging his shoulders and saying that "eh, who cares, it's only Christians"....A deplorable, and willful ignoring of atrocity.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No, he is shrugging his shoulders and saying that "eh, who cares, it's only Christians"....A deplorable, and willful ignoring of atrocity.
    I am? Wow, thanks for the gift of words in my mouth on this Christmas afternoon.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    I am? Wow, thanks for the gift of words in my mouth on this Christmas afternoon.

    That's certainly how it comes across.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    I tried.

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    Re: Christianity beginning 'to disappear' in its birthplace, warns Prince of Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    I tried.
    Trying to substantiate your feelings without using any factual support usually ends in failure.

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