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Thread: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

  1. #141
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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, running away from a decision to go to war is a huge mistake. All it got was more Americans killed, more billions spent, and American credibility wasted. Does anyone believe in America anymore? When a government agrees to go to war the people of the country should remain united but instead the Democrats turned the people on each other and everyone lost. How many people would now be willing to suit up and risk their lives for this new America? They'd have to be blinded by patriotism.

    And of course Barrack Obama didn't vote for the war or against the war. He was busy voting 'present' in the Illinois Senate at the time.
    The problem is that the war against Iraq was never a war. It was called that, unlike the past undeclared war that was dubbed a "military action" among other things, but the fact of the matter is that there never was a declaration of war. The Congress foisted off their Constitutional responsibility of declaring war by passing a sort, of "OK, go to war if you must" sort of a resolution which was never even included in the budget, but did not declare war against Iraq.

    The lesson learned (or that should have been learned) is that we never go to war without a clear and present danger to the US or its allies, never without a formal declaration, never without the people of this country being on board with the war, and never without a clear exit strategy. What did victory look like in Iraq? Like Iraq of today? Did we win or lose? What did we win? We spent a pile of money and spilled gallons of blood, and for what?
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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The problem is that the war against Iraq was never a war. It was called that, unlike the past undeclared war that was dubbed a "military action" among other things, but the fact of the matter is that there never was a declaration of war. The Congress foisted off their Constitutional responsibility of declaring war by passing a sort, of "OK, go to war if you must" sort of a resolution which was never even included in the budget, but did not declare war against Iraq.

    The lesson learned (or that should have been learned) is that we never go to war without a clear and present danger to the US or its allies, never without a formal declaration, never without the people of this country being on board with the war, and never without a clear exit strategy. What did victory look like in Iraq? Like Iraq of today? Did we win or lose? What did we win? We spent a pile of money and spilled gallons of blood, and for what?
    If Congress foisted off their Constitutional responsibilities then it remains the fault of Congress. But once they gave their approval for action they should stand by their decision and not run when there appears to be political advantage in doing so.

    And as far as an 'exit strategy' is concerned, we exit when we win. That has always been the rule of war and how it ever became changed can probably be traced back to those Democrats who were for the war before they were against it.

    America and democracy lost to Islamism in Iraq and this is having consequences throughout the world. They understand that America is weak of will and will use that to their advantage, as they are doing.

    Everyone believed at the time that Saddam Hussein was a 'clear and present danger', and there are the quotes everywhere to prove it. But once the criticisms started coming in the political cowards began turning on the interests of their own country and it's Allies. Can the US ever be trusted in this situation again or will they always be 'leading from behind' in the future? My guess is that they will not be leading again in any real sense until they begin electing genuine leaders.

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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If Congress foisted off their Constitutional responsibilities then it remains the fault of Congress. But once they gave their approval for action they should stand by their decision and not run when there appears to be political advantage in doing so.
    Exactly, and they did not stand by their decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And as far as an 'exit strategy' is concerned, we exit when we win. That has always been the rule of war and how it ever became changed can probably be traced back to those Democrats who were for the war before they were against it.
    How do we know when we win? Did we win when they hanged Saddam Hussain? Why didn't we get out then? No exit strategy means we don't know when we've won.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    America and democracy lost to Islamism in Iraq and this is having consequences throughout the world. They understand that America is weak of will and will use that to their advantage, as they are doing.
    The ironic thing is that Iraq under the Hussain regime was a secular state, not an Islamist one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Everyone believed at the time that Saddam Hussein was a 'clear and present danger', and there are the quotes everywhere to prove it. But once the criticisms started coming in the political cowards began turning on the interests of their own country and it's Allies. Can the US ever be trusted in this situation again or will they always be 'leading from behind' in the future? My guess is that they will not be leading again in any real sense until they begin electing genuine leaders.
    Agreed. Genuine leaders would not have rushed into a war with no clear exit strategy and no will to win if we had.

    But, the "trust" you speak of ended with the Fall of Saigon. It hasn't existed since the '70s.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    How do we know when we win? Did we win when they hanged Saddam Hussain? Why didn't we get out then? No exit strategy means we don't know when we've won.
    Perhaps the meaning of 'exit strategy' is the problem. I think the goals should be clear and no exit until those goals are achieved. Those goals have been met before and under much more difficult situation..
    The ironic thing is that Iraq under the Hussain regime was a secular state, not an Islamist one.
    Not entirely. Recall his last words. But in any case a strong foothold in Libya would have afforded a strong presence in the ME. just as the US (and other forces) kept bases in Europe after WWII.
    But, the "trust" you speak of ended with the Fall of Saigon. It hasn't existed since the '70s.
    Yes, and Richard Nixon said that US credibility would be lost at the time and it was, despite his "Peace With Honor" campaign. Since then there has been nothing done to recapture that credibility.

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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Perhaps the meaning of 'exit strategy' is the problem. I think the goals should be clear and no exit until those goals are achieved. Those goals have been met before and under much more difficult situation..
    Not entirely. Recall his last words. But in any case a strong foothold in Libya would have afforded a strong presence in the ME. just as the US (and other forces) kept bases in Europe after WWII.
    Yes, and Richard Nixon said that US credibility would be lost at the time and it was, despite his "Peace With Honor" campaign. Since then there has been nothing done to recapture that credibility.
    That's what I mean by exit strategy: achieve the goals, t hen get out. The goals of invading Iraq were, what again?
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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    That's what I mean by exit strategy: achieve the goals, t hen get out. The goals of invading Iraq were, what again?
    Freedom! (patent pending)
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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Freedom! (patent pending)
    Freedom for people who aren't asking for freedom? Maybe next time, we'll pick an achievable goal.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, running away from a decision to go to war is a huge mistake. All it got was more Americans killed, more billions spent, and American credibility wasted. Does anyone believe in America anymore? When a government agrees to go to war the people of the country should remain united but instead the Democrats turned the people on each other and everyone lost. How many people would now be willing to suit up and risk their lives for this new America? They'd have to be blinded by patriotism.

    And of course Barrack Obama didn't vote for the war or against the war. He was busy voting 'present' in the Illinois Senate at the time.
    Shocking that you'd find some way to blame the Democrats for the problems in Iraq.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  9. #149
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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Freedom for people who aren't asking for freedom? Maybe next time, we'll pick an achievable goal.
    Yeah, yeah you didn't agree with Iraq. We get it. What does that have to do with Obama's dismal performance?
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    Re: Five years in, Obama and Bush poll numbers nearly identical

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yeah, yeah you didn't agree with Iraq. We get it. What does that have to do with Obama's dismal performance?
    Obama did everything we expected of him. He announced a withdrawal while the fighting was still taking place both in Iraq and Afghanistan, the one he thought was the right war. How does a Community Organizer with no resume get to be able to make these decisions, and what does that say about the American people? They still have more sense than the Europeans but the growing similarities are worrisome.

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