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Thread: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    IMO, the public assistance programs are meant for those....those that are incapable OR short term.

    But there is a systemic cycle here, endemic throughout the US, of people who choose to rely on it long term or permanently and even develop strategies to do so. They are not a minority, they are not "a small percentage of free riders." If we could enable those people to be successful on their own (whether they like it or not), then there would be more left for those truly in need. But these others are taking advantage of every working person and the families they support.
    Actually, they are a minority.
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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    IMO, the public assistance programs are meant for those....those that are incapable OR short term.

    But there is a systemic cycle here, endemic throughout the US, of people who choose to rely on it long term or permanently and even develop strategies to do so. They are not a minority, they are not "a small percentage of free riders." If we could enable those people to be successful on their own (whether they like it or not), then there would be more left for those truly in need. But these others are taking advantage of every working person and the families they support.
    My impression (and that's all it is) is that the hopeless are indeed a minority. Now, I very well could be wrong and if you can find some impartial statistics to show otherwise, I'll be first in line to admit my errors in judgement.

    But for discussion sake, lets say that 20% of the bottom 10% are the total losers who don't even try. They live lowly lives but they don't have to work or try at all. So, including every man, woman and child, we have a possible pool of 30 million people that comprise the bottom. If we take out the children (we don't expect them to work or have influence on their parents), recognizing that the bottom tends to have more children than average, we now have maybe 20 million adults (and I'm being generous). Lets say that 20% is comprised of 4 million people.

    It sounds like a lot but in context, it's about 2% of the population. Of course we want them to get off their asses but a lot of those people are incredibly dumb, were raised without any positive influences and can't even express themselves properly. What do we do with them? I'm not trying to excuse them, I'm just trying to be realistic.

    I'm an advocate of strict enforcement of misrepresentation that gains free money. But I wonder what might be done about this? It's unfair that a minority absorbs the funding that should be helping the more potentially productive. But unless we are willing to engage in harsh measures, such as banishment, we can't let this cause us to refuse all aid, particularly food.

    Do you have any suggestions as to how we might solve this without being unfair to the more legitimate claimants? Now, we seem to be reducing food allocations but this affects all those in need in order to take revenge on a relatively small group.

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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Realistically, this may not be a fixable problem. In the age of robots and globalization, lower end jobs will not be returning to America. We've actually had growth in manufacturing but a great deal of our products are built by machines. To run these machines you must have enough education to manage them correctly. So, these are good jobs but they aren't available to a 20-something with a GED.

    So, we will have a pool of people at the bottom. Some will have had a temporary disruption and they'll bounce back. Some will never leave their circumstances. As one of the worlds largest agricultural countries, that pays billions to certain beloved corporations to NOT grow food, I don't think we have any food shortages coming up.

    Some on assistance will manage their tiny income wisely and get by. Some will squander it on dope. Hopefully, they'll remember to buy junior some oatmeal. SNAP is probably the LEAST troubling welfare program. Even useless people must be fed. Why resent something that basic?
    Can you point to ANYTHING I have written that points to my resenting this program???

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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    A huge step in providing more options for people is not having kids until you have established yourself in a job, skill, career, etc. That doesnt apply to people who fall on hard times after that, but I have no idea why people subject themselves to the added difficulty of providing for kids on little or no income. I feel they should be held accountable for such carelessness or inconsideration. But once they have the kids, those are their leverage for an unending stream of govt assistance. I think more public $$ should be spent on daycare and job training and serious efforts to *ensure* that they are used by people on public assistance.

    And there are some of those programs and incentives, however not enough and no one is ever completely cut off. They say there are limits, but there's always another program, or always another scam and in the long run 'but the children will suffer!' always works. My aunt used to run a computer training program for the unemployed in NJ...they were (mostly) women on welfare that *had* to go to the program in order to get their benefits. My aunt said they were super smart, had no trouble with the coursework, but instead, many chose to figure out ways to avoid the classes and still retain their benefits. I have a friend in Milwaukee working for the city in social services....she deals with these issues every day.

    We just continue to perpetuate failure....we are not 'helping' future generations growing up in these conditions.

    /rant
    Sorry, didn't see your posts in the right order.

    I don't know what's with the baby thing either. How irresponsible people are. I'm an advocate of allowing children by permit only (nobody likes that idea of mine but heck, it's just an idea).

    As far as the multiple programs, I'm as unhappy about that a you are. There should a much fewer and those should be far more effective. I was specifically referring to SNAP as being the least disturbing.

    I know a few people "milking the system" but they are definitely NOT "super-smart".

    What can be done? I'm open minded.

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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Can you point to ANYTHING I have written that points to my resenting this program???
    I apologize for my poor terminology. I was using "you" as in "what can you do", not as you, the individual.

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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    I apologize for my poor terminology. I was using "you" as in "what can you do", not as you, the individual.
    OK thanks.

    I do think we have to help all folks in need even if some might be considered unworthy by certain standards.

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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Buying in bulk is probably difficult for her considering where she lives, and has no personal transportation.
    She does go to those Bread for the city and other free food places,so transportation isn't a problem.There is 15 year old, 17 year old, 22 year old, and a 25 year old, living with her that can help her with the heavy stuff, the 13 year old and 11 year old can stay at home and watch the twins.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    My honest response to this....

    It further degrades my hope for people and for this country in general. It greatly makes me question the principles and views I hold dear. It causes emotion to smack into logic and cold hard reality. It furthers my thought that the continual move away from a Freedom rsetricting society wrongfully crushing individualism and personal choice has created a soceity of nacissists and irresponsible people. That we are moving every day further and further to a situation where we devour ourselves out of the notion of "Kindness" and "caring" or we descend into a realm of authoritarianism in a backwards effort to save society; essentially, two horrible options. Why do I feel we're stuck with those options? Because the third option...SOCIETY correcting itself as a whole...seems to be an impossability.

    I understand Dana's point in terms of the "savagery" of letting people, including children, starve. At the same time, so often we must avoid such "savageries" because of actions and choices made by people that are given less and less negative reenforcement every year. The welfare state will always grow, the costs will always sore, and this just keeps recycling as we see with this woman's mother and now herself.

    The scary thing is that this makes me think that one way or another we're going to end up eventually moving into an athoratative situation...the question simply comes down to whether or not it's done in the name of "Kindness" or in the name of correction. The only way to continue to prevent being "savages" is to take more and more money, to put more and more regulation, to use the force of government more and more to redistribute the wealth in the country. In the name of "kindness" we will bleed our wealth dry, we'll bleed our economy dry, and we'll bleed our freedoms dry bringing us more and more equal as more and more people fall into the "safety net" that is more apt to be called a safety prison. On the flip side, to try and actually fix what ailes society would require savagery and wrongful removal of freedoms on the part of the government....pushing back throug the power of state against the poor habits and choices within society. However, at least in this case, there is a CHANCE that the illness is cured and forward movement can be made again. But the question at that point would be is it worth moving forward.

    What does stories like this make me think? What do responses from even self proclaimed "conservatives" calling for more nad more welfare make me feel? Simple.

    I feel like we're ready to follow Rome.

    We're eating ourselves from the inside and will continue. Stories like these, despite my attempts for optimism and measured thoughts, makes me feel like we're not going to have a United States in the same spirit of what I've known it to be while growing up. That, at best, it will still exist in name. But ultimately I beleve we are going to eat ourselves from the inside in the name of "kindness", "individualism", and a sense of "Whatever, I'll do what I want".

    We have created a society and culture destined to fail.
    Sadly, I fear you're correct, Zyphlin. I also think that if not already there, we are really close to a point of no return. When I was growing up, failure was never in the lexicon in our home. I never knew that I could coast or underachieve the very idea was foreign to me. I paid myself through college working 40 hours a week and still going to school. (I'm still catching up on sleep 15 years later) My Father was a habitual gambler (played the ponies) and it broke our family up. My Mom moved us back to Canada from England with $16 in her pocket, we left my Dad there but he followed a few months later. We stayed with family until my Mom working three jobs got us out of having to depend on family, and we moved into a low rent home three bedrooms with 4 kids. I never saw my Mom and it was left to me and my older brother to raise us, or at least make sure that we didn't die..

    I remember having to wear second hand clothes, unisex pants, used boots and coats in winter for the first few years, I hated my parents for that, as school kids are so unforgiving, but I endured it all. All through it, it never occurred to me to give up, or to join the ranks of welfare. Luckily my Mom avoided it because back then there was this thing about welfare, we called it shame, and being on it was considered taboo, not celebrated like it is today. It was very uncommon to know someone on welfare, even in the poor neighborhood we lived in, it really was rare. I'm not entirely sure how the shame went away, or when but it clearly has, and this goes to the point I believe you're making. There is no shame in taking when you KNOW you're capable of doing more for yourself. There really isn't. I see it all the time in the grocery store, at the beginning of the month, all those two grocery carts full of goodies.. I am lucky (and ambitious) and I taught myself about computers, and have become very successful as a data center systems integrator, but it was all self taught. Funny that what I went to school for and slaved over for 4 years has absolutely nothing to do with my present career.. Look nice on the wall though..

    The point I'm trying to make is that ultimately we create our own situations, and our own brand of luck in life, and even when things look bleak, as long as you're willing to keep trying, and keep digging, you'll find some of that luck, or develop a skillset that employers are looking for. Intelligence, and education can only take you so far, and for me if I were to try and pick a single attribute for my success, I go back to my Mom's courage and sacrifice, and call it... Desire! I desired a better life for my kids, and I took no prisoners, and went after it. The idea that someone else needs to pay for my failure is ludicrous to me. If I'm not out every day trying to get better, and up every morning at the crack of dawn trying to pin-point opportunities, I'm failing.. If I'm not moving forward, I'm failing, and it's not anyone else's fault but my own.

    I get the poor kids aspect of why it is politically difficult to reform welfare, and to me the only solution that addresses all of the difficultness of reform is work for welfare. It shows kids that there is no free lunch, and it empowers those on welfare to improve themselves, or at the very least to build up a resume of strong work ethic, and motivation.

    I see no other politically bi-partisan approach that would work.

    Tim-
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    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  9. #49
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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    My impression (and that's all it is) is that the hopeless are indeed a minority. Now, I very well could be wrong and if you can find some impartial statistics to show otherwise, I'll be first in line to admit my errors in judgement.

    But for discussion sake, lets say that 20% of the bottom 10% are the total losers who don't even try. They live lowly lives but they don't have to work or try at all. So, including every man, woman and child, we have a possible pool of 30 million people that comprise the bottom. If we take out the children (we don't expect them to work or have influence on their parents), recognizing that the bottom tends to have more children than average, we now have maybe 20 million adults (and I'm being generous). Lets say that 20% is comprised of 4 million people.

    It sounds like a lot but in context, it's about 2% of the population. Of course we want them to get off their asses but a lot of those people are incredibly dumb, were raised without any positive influences and can't even express themselves properly. What do we do with them? I'm not trying to excuse them, I'm just trying to be realistic.

    I'm an advocate of strict enforcement of misrepresentation that gains free money. But I wonder what might be done about this? It's unfair that a minority absorbs the funding that should be helping the more potentially productive. But unless we are willing to engage in harsh measures, such as banishment, we can't let this cause us to refuse all aid, particularly food.

    Do you have any suggestions as to how we might solve this without being unfair to the more legitimate claimants? Now, we seem to be reducing food allocations but this affects all those in need in order to take revenge on a relatively small group.
    Well said.

    Re: the bold, I *do* consider 2% of the population to be a very high number...but when I posted I was referring to not being a 'minority' of those on public assistance, not the general population, just for clarification.

    And I've never seen anyone quite so honestly blunt about some of that minority, lol. I think much of it is not actual 'intelligence' but the same systemic cycle...but in terms of ignorance & lack of (value of) education rather than finances. But that is just IMO.


    I only have one solution and it's expensive. Pay MORE to social workers and others in charge of the oversight of the $$ and the *people*. THis will ensure better quality of those working on our behalf (and the horror stories here in my state alone of the terrible quality of social services is an example of that) AND put more qualified people out on the streets working with individuals and families, ensuring they go to training, teaching them how to spend their money more wisely, shopping WITH them, making sure their kids are going to school, doing frequent and surprise home visits, etc. It takes more $$ and more qualified people. Yes, babysitting. I really think that these social services people have a huge responsibility, they require years of training, and should be paid what they are worth...and I dont think they are...which is why we get stuck with so many that suck....or get discouraged and there's not enough to compensate them.

    And it will cost ALOT. But it's my hope that it would *break* that cycle and not be necessary after say, 25 years? It's just IMO.
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    Re: WaPo: Waiting for the 8th

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Well said.

    Re: the bold, I *do* consider 2% of the population to be a very high number...but when I posted I was referring to not being a 'minority' of those on public assistance, not the general population, just for clarification.

    And I've never seen anyone quite so honestly blunt about some of that minority, lol. I think much of it is not actual 'intelligence' but the same systemic cycle...but in terms of ignorance & lack of (value of) education rather than finances. But that is just IMO.


    I only have one solution and it's expensive. Pay MORE to social workers and others in charge of the oversight of the $$ and the *people*. THis will ensure better quality of those working on our behalf (and the horror stories here in my state alone of the terrible quality of social services is an example of that) AND put more qualified people out on the streets working with individuals and families, ensuring they go to training, teaching them how to spend their money more wisely, shopping WITH them, making sure their kids are going to school, doing frequent and surprise home visits, etc. It takes more $$ and more qualified people. Yes, babysitting. I really think that these social services people have a huge responsibility, they require years of training, and should be paid what they are worth...and I dont think they are...which is why we get stuck with so many that suck....or get discouraged and there's not enough to compensate them.

    And it will cost ALOT. But it's my hope that it would *break* that cycle and not be necessary after say, 25 years? It's just IMO.
    In a way, humor is inappropriate in such serious matters. But I'm compelled to say "50% of the population are below average".

    I too advocate a well chosen and adequately rewarded management system in hopes of reducing chronic dependency. But we will never achieve 100% and we face a baby/bathwater situation here. For reasons too long and too uninteresting to detail her, I live among the poor, I am their landlord (7 of them anyway), their neighbor and their casual friend. Most of my assorted associates do work and look for opportunities to make additional income by doing odd jobs. Because of my age, my generally friendly demeanor and my monetary influence, I try to educate people about money. Some ar receptive, some are not.

    One of my friends is a Social Worker and she is not very well paid. But she manages her income with great skill and in our monthly lunches, she is as likely to grab the check as I am. My respect for her is quite genuine. I also get some insight as to the weakness of the Social Welfare system.

    There seems to be a lot of concern about "spending". But the problem IMHO is not how much we spend but what our ROI is. Any time I see someone break fee from the cycle, I applaud them. But some simply don't have the internal processing capability to take the opportunities.

    So, I support your idea and regardless of the outcome, I do not want to use food as a form of punishment for anyone. We feed our prisoners and we have more of those than anyone else does. If we can do that - we can also feed the incompetent.

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