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Thread: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Or we could transition to clean alternative energy sources. But you guys are against that because it cuts into the fossil fuel industry's profits so they've instructed their naive followers to obstruct any progress. You don't even get paid to do their bidding, you do it for free.
    Actuallly you're spouting false programming, but it is funny to watch. Please let us know when you take off on the first solar powered airliner, we want to be there to roast the hot dogs.

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    "Uh...uh...what green energy subsidies for the past 20 years?"

    Do you have an argument of do you think just mentioning "green energy subsidies" is sufficient?

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Only the oil industry in under developped countries does not create more jobs and that's been proven to be a fact. The oil workers are already there and they're getting paid less and less or in some cases not at all. So what are they prospering with? Thin air? Because they aren't getting the key factor in your argument: wages.

    You've started off with a strawman. What has been argued is that in an underdevelopped country (such as Mexico) rife with corruption, labor abuses and human rights abuses, wealth is kept at the top and the prosperity only comes to those directing the projects from an executive possition. Saudi Arabia, the largest producer of oil in the world has also some of the highest poverty rates in the world. The list goes on: Venezuela, Nigeria, Kuwait. The pattern is obvious and has been explored before. In underdevelopped countries, oil does not mean prosperity for the country. It means prosperity for a select few and poverty and oppression for the rest.

    The second part of your post is just laughable. What percentage of those who cross the border do oil workers constitute? The majority of those who cross the border are low skilled workers working in food manufaturing, cleaning services and grounds keeping. So what would opening up Mexico to oil field work do? Nothing. Especially considering oil companies are notorious for abusing the rights of workers and not paying wages.
    Oh...so more developement in the oilfield doesn't create more jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    Actuallly you're spouting false programming, but it is funny to watch. Please let us know when you take off on the first solar powered airliner, we want to be there to roast the hot dogs.
    Your first mistake was that you decided that I wanted to end airlines, trains and ship transport. I never said that did I? Now you're saying I want to fly solar powered airplanes, again, you decided this, not me.

    I support transitioning away which means doing things that use less fossil fuels and use more clean alternatives. This also involves initiatives to help make green energy financially sustainable.

    If we had invested in the technology and put forth great effort we could have substantially reduced our use of fossil fuels in the last few decades but we haven't. Its never too late to start and we can begin aggressively transitioning away now, however most don't want to do that so... let the good times roll! Drill baby drill!

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Do you have an argument of do you think just mentioning "green energy subsidies" is sufficient?
    I could mention the half a billion dollar we blew subsidizing Solyndra.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I'm against it because it can't survive without hundreds of billions in government subsidies.
    So we should end the green energy subsidies and just stick with fossil fuels... and their subsidies? And who cares about climate change anyways?

    Let me add this, since you're against subsidies.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies

    Allocation of subsidies in the United States

    A 2011 study by the consulting firm Management Information Services, Inc. (MISI)[7] estimated the total historical federal subsidies for various energy sources over the years 1950–2010. The study found that oil, natural gas, and coal received $369 billion, $121 billion, and $104 billion (2010 dollars), respectively, or 70% of total energy subsidies over that period. Oil, natural gas, and coal benefitted most from percentage depletion allowances and other tax-based subsidies, but oil also benefitted heavily from regulatory subsidies such as exemptions from price controls and higher-than-average rates of return allowed on oil pipelines. The MISI report found that non-hydro renewable energy (primarily wind and solar) benefitted from $74 billion in federal subsidies, or 9% of the total, largely in the form of tax policy and direct federal expenditures on research and development (R&D). Nuclear power benefitted from $73 billion in federal subsidies, 9% of the total, largely in the form of R&D, while hydro power received $90 billion in federal subsidies, 12% of the total.

    A 2009 study by the Environmental Law Institute[8] assessed the size and structure of U.S. energy subsidies over the 2002–2008 period. The study estimated that subsidies to fossil-fuel based sources amounted to approximately $72 billion over this period and subsidies to renewable fuel sources totaled $29 billion. The study did not assess subsidies supporting nuclear energy.

    The three largest fossil fuel subsidies were:

    Foreign tax credit ($15.3 billion)
    Credit for production of non-conventional fuels ($14.1 billion)
    Oil and Gas exploration and development expensing ($7.1 billion)

    The three largest renewable fuel subsidies were:

    Alcohol Credit for Fuel Excise Tax ($11.6 billion)
    Renewable Electricity Production Credit ($5.2 billion)
    Corn-Based Ethanol ($5.0 billion)

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    As far as people go: I'm currently in Mexico and no one here is happy with this. As it is, companies already get away with some of the biggest labor abuses here. With the new investors that will come, the prediction by locals is that the government will be used as a punishing force to anyone who dares oppose oil companies. The comparisons to Nigeria aren't exactly helping. Nigeria is rife with human rights abuses, destruction of habitat and labor abuses. Most Mexicans are already predicting it will also happen here. The next elections will be very interesting to watch. It's already a given that the PRI will lose power federally. The oil producing states of Chiapas, Veracruz and Tabasco are already looking at serious demonstrations. People are well aware of the way in which the government has abused its power to enforce the wishes of corporations.

    The violence: The Gulf of Mexico is a place of interest for most as it is currently controlled by the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. When/if Mexico succeeds in luring interests, most Atlantic Ocean states will likely see an increase in violence and even the possibility of an upsurge in kidnappings. It's already happening with the mining industry. Cartels have taken over some mines as well as kidnapped important mining figures in the states of Guanajuato, Zacatecas & San Luis Potosi.

    The economy: It is a given that in Mexico, wealth does not trickle down. Governors in the state that I'm in have a history of 1) Using violence/kidnappings to establish their position 2) Steal outrageous sums of money/benefits/licenses from coffers and 3) leave the state. So people are more than convinced that once oil companies are allowed to invest in Mexican oil fields, governors will charge a "fee" for them to operate, siphon the money from whatever levy/taxes are paid by oil companies and then leave. Essentially, for most this means that corruption in the state will actually grow.

    My opinion: The only people who seem to be celebrating are those who are those outside of Mexico. Few are actually aware the level of corruption that exists within the country and future investors should be ready to pay out a lot of cash to 1) local governors, 2) cartels and 3) federal employees before they even think about investing here. They will also have to think twice about the violence that will follow their investment. Mexico is not ready for companies to invest in it - not by a long shot.
    I agree with your insight, but is the way to less corruption and violence really a reduction in foreign investment? If corruption and violence are already prevalent in Mexico prior to this occurring, then what does maintaining the status quo actually accomplish? Rather, I think this would be a good time for Mexico to use the opportunity to make a major investment in their oil fields as leverage to ensure protections and use the additional funds to strengthen the fight against cartels. The key is that Mexico has to take the initiative to reform and reduce violence. Whether or not that happens is independent of whether they allow foreign investment in their oil fields.

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    So we should end the green energy subsidies and just stick with fossil fuels... and their subsidies? And who cares about climate change anyways?

    Let me add this, since you're against subsidies.

    Energy subsidies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    1) oil companies don't get subsidies

    2) if green is so great, let it compete

    3) climate change is bull****
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Your first mistake was that you decided that I wanted to end airlines, trains and ship transport. I never said that did I? Now you're saying I want to fly solar powered airplanes, again, you decided this, not me.

    I support transitioning away which means doing things that use less fossil fuels and use more clean alternatives. This also involves initiatives to help make green energy financially sustainable.

    If we had invested in the technology and put forth great effort we could have substantially reduced our use of fossil fuels in the last few decades but we haven't. Its never too late to start and we can begin aggressively transitioning away now, however most don't want to do that so... let the good times roll! Drill baby drill!
    Green Energy is not sustainable, all those failed companies on the taxpayer dime proved that during this administration.

    Green energy will always be a small and very costly contributor to our overall needs

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    Re: North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    1) oil companies don't get subsidies

    2) if green is so great, let it compete

    3) climate change is bull****
    1) Are you saying the link I provided is all lies?

    2) Let it compete against an industry that has had over a century to mature with a 1/3 of a trillion dollars of U.S. subsidies and still receives about 50b a year in subsidies?

    3) The scientists are all lying about climate change? Its all manufactured?

    Notice how your arguments all hinge on saying that all evidence that is contrary to your position are lies.

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