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Thread: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    I understand the ruling. I was being more rhetorical than anything.
    Sorry I didn't catch that......
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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Before they get done redefining marriage, it will be legal between a brother and a sister, father and daughter, a mother and son, gay men/women, straight men/women will be allowed multiple spouses and the consent laws will get lowered. And who knows maybe a man who loves his sheep or the woman who loves her cat. You keep hearing more and more people willing their money to their animals.
    Who cares what someone else does as long as it involves consenting adults? No one is harmed.

    My only objection is if the govt chooses to hand out more benefits, rights, privileges, etc per partner. Because THEN it is not equitable.

    Altho I dont believe the govt should be involved at all but that's just not realistic at this point.

    I dont understand why people are so concerned about what 'other' people do that really doesnt affect them.
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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Sorry I didn't catch that......
    you're fine, it wasn't overly obvious
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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Who cares what someone else does as long as it involves consenting adults? No one is harmed.

    My only objection is if the govt chooses to hand out more benefits, rights, privileges, etc per partner. Because THEN it is not equitable.

    Altho I dont believe the govt should be involved at all but that's just not realistic at this point.

    I dont understand why people are so concerned about what 'other' people do that really doesnt affect them.
    The truth is, some choices we make as individuals do indeed affect others and society as a whole. In the case of a polygamist who produces 18 children as Kody Brown has with his 4 wives, it means Kody needs a really good job to provide for 23 people. Kody got lucky and is being paid well for a TLC series about his polygamist lifestyle plus a job in advertising. Not everyone is that lucky. In his particular case three of his wives are stay at home moms caring for the children, while one wife is working outside the home. That would be equivalent to a traditional family where the mother/father both worked and had 18 kids and three nannies/housekeepers all living under the same roof. You would need at least 7 bedrooms with an average of 4 persons sharing each one. The master probably has a revolving door. The home would need at the very least 3 bathrooms and a dang mess hall for everyone to sit down for a meal. OMG the grocery bill! You would need multiple stoves, refrigerators, and a mini laundry mat. Just to go someplace as a family would require a friggin school bus. There is no way most could afford to provide for all those children properly on a two parent income. So most likely the "spiritual" wives which the state does not recognize as marriages are on the government dole which means We the People are left paying for this insanity. When you can not take full responsibility for your own life choices and expect others to provide for them, then it becomes the business of those who are forced to pay.

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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The truth is, some choices we make as individuals do indeed affect others and society as a whole. In the case of a polygamist who produces 18 children as Kody Brown has with his 4 wives, it means Kody needs a really good job to provide for 23 people. Kody got lucky and is being paid well for a TLC series about his polygamist lifestyle plus a job in advertising. Not everyone is that lucky. In his particular case three of his wives are stay at home moms caring for the children, while one wife is working outside the home. That would be equivalent to a traditional family where the mother/father both worked and had 18 kids and three nannies/housekeepers all living under the same roof. You would need at least 7 bedrooms with an average of 4 persons sharing each one. The master probably has a revolving door. The home would need at the very least 3 bathrooms and a dang mess hall for everyone to sit down for a meal. OMG the grocery bill! You would need multiple stoves, refrigerators, and a mini laundry mat. Just to go someplace as a family would require a friggin school bus. There is no way most could afford to provide for all those children properly on a two parent income. So most likely the "spiritual" wives which the state does not recognize as marriages are on the government dole which means We the People are left paying for this insanity. When you can not take full responsibility for your own life choices and expect others to provide for them, then it becomes the business of those who are forced to pay.
    That assumes that you have people in the poly lifestyle who want that many children. Kody and his wives have that many children because that is part of their faith, similar with Catholics and their belief of no birth control. Most poly families don't have that many children, although they probably do have a higher than average number. But in reality how is Kody really any different than a monogamous couple having 7 or more children today? There was a Petty Officer in my division who had that many. Even on E-5 pay with the number of years he had in, he barely made ends meet. Kody averages 4.25 per wife. Who is burdening society more?

    Basicly right now you are assuming that the earth is flat based upon casual observation and conjecture. Do you have any evidence to support the "possibilities" you presented, outside of the FLDS compounds where we already know they are abusing the system, for poly families here in the US? Let's leave out the rest of the world for the moment.

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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    That assumes that you have people in the poly lifestyle who want that many children. Kody and his wives have that many children because that is part of their faith, similar with Catholics and their belief of no birth control. Most poly families don't have that many children, although they probably do have a higher than average number. But in reality how is Kody really any different than a monogamous couple having 7 or more children today? There was a Petty Officer in my division who had that many. Even on E-5 pay with the number of years he had in, he barely made ends meet. Kody averages 4.25 per wife. Who is burdening society more?

    Basicly right now you are assuming that the earth is flat based upon casual observation and conjecture. Do you have any evidence to support the "possibilities" you presented, outside of the FLDS compounds where we already know they are abusing the system, for poly families here in the US? Let's leave out the rest of the world for the moment.
    The polygamy lifestyle is generally associated with producing many children. It is no secret these huge families game the welfare system. About a decade ago in Utah it was revealed that about 2% of the population engaged in polygamy lifestyle and that these communities were big users of welfare. A man only registered being married to one wife could have 7 uncounted ones all producing babies and listed as single moms with children with the government and each one maxing out on benefits. That income doesn't effect the reported income of the head of the household when he pays his taxes but sure gets the benefit from it. Texas, Utah, Arizona and other mainly western states have these communities where polygamy is accepted so that is where they tend to go.

    You didn't want to talk about other countries in regard to this post but I think it is important to point out that this is common practice in many places where polygamists reside. The UK has had several stories recently about how the citizens are being bilked for welfare from practicing Muslim polygamists. Canada not too long ago was reporting about the same thing. A google search I'm sure will verify all this.

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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The polygamy lifestyle is generally associated with producing many children. It is no secret these huge families game the welfare system. About a decade ago in Utah it was revealed that about 2% of the population engaged in polygamy lifestyle and that these communities were big users of welfare. A man only registered being married to one wife could have 7 uncounted ones all producing babies and listed as single moms with children with the government and each one maxing out on benefits. That income doesn't effect the reported income of the head of the household when he pays his taxes but sure gets the benefit from it. Texas, Utah, Arizona and other mainly western states have these communities where polygamy is accepted so that is where they tend to go.
    The FLDS are the most visible and most oft looked at within the poly lifestyle, polygamy or not. Thus they become the sterotype for the whole, but the sterotype does not hold true for the majority of us. That's like looking at the hip-hop and gansta lifestyles and thinking because of the large black population within them that that is how all blacks or most blacks are. It's simply not true. That isn't to say that these FLDS members are not bilking the system or that there are not other polys bilking the system. Many singles and monogamous people are also bilking the system. The problem is with the system for the most part but as far as those who are taking adavtage of it, it's not just or even a majority of the polys doing it.

    You didn't want to talk about other countries in regard to this post but I think it is important to point out that this is common practice in many places where polygamists reside. The UK has had several stories recently about how the citizens are being bilked for welfare from practicing Muslim polygamists. Canada not too long ago was reporting about the same thing. A google search I'm sure will verify all this.
    I had set aside the other countries and especially the Mid-East Muslims aside beause those Muslims are no better than the FLDS in their view of women. However, the issues stem of the poor view of women that they have and not from polygamy in and of itself.

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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    I did know Catholic families when I was growing up who had up to 15 kids with just two parents; however, as far as I know they didn't use welfare (I could be wrong, I was a kid, what did I know?)

    But the Mormon fundamentalists have definitely put a bad twist on polygamy - with their abuses of women, their marrying off of young girls to old men, their use of welfare to finance their lifestyle, control of their communities, etc.

    Polyamory with consenting adults doesn't have to be abusive.

    If only there was a way to get the fundamentalists "exposed" to other ways of living, to get their kids educated so they can make choices freely, etc.

    And the marrying of young women to old men... that just has to stop. No matter what the young women say, they've been brainwashed through their upbringing to think it's a good thing.

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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I would like to say that while I did not agree with DOMA, many users on this website predicted this exact situation would happen as a result. The gay community is winning victory after victory in the same sex marriage realm. However, every action has a reaction. This, I believe, is a reaction to that. This judge really has no precedent anymore to rule against polygamy. Nor does any other Federal judge really.
    Polygamy advocate groups hail judge's ruling in Utah | Fox News
    What? Utah couldn't even become a state till it officially denounced polygamy. Plenty of precedent. Regardless, there are various arguments and real world examples to point to in order to discourage polygamy. But if it ever became an institute which could uphold the rights and liberties of all involved, then who really cares?
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    Re: Polygamy Advocate Groups Hail Judge Ruling in Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The truth is, some choices we make as individuals do indeed affect others and society as a whole. In the case of a polygamist who produces 18 children as Kody Brown has with his 4 wives, it means Kody needs a really good job to provide for 23 people. Kody got lucky and is being paid well for a TLC series about his polygamist lifestyle plus a job in advertising. Not everyone is that lucky. In his particular case three of his wives are stay at home moms caring for the children, while one wife is working outside the home. That would be equivalent to a traditional family where the mother/father both worked and had 18 kids and three nannies/housekeepers all living under the same roof. You would need at least 7 bedrooms with an average of 4 persons sharing each one. The master probably has a revolving door. The home would need at the very least 3 bathrooms and a dang mess hall for everyone to sit down for a meal. OMG the grocery bill! You would need multiple stoves, refrigerators, and a mini laundry mat. Just to go someplace as a family would require a friggin school bus. There is no way most could afford to provide for all those children properly on a two parent income. So most likely the "spiritual" wives which the state does not recognize as marriages are on the government dole which means We the People are left paying for this insanity. When you can not take full responsibility for your own life choices and expect others to provide for them, then it becomes the business of those who are forced to pay.
    Hello Vesper.

    Dont get me wrong. I am appalled by that family on TV that has 19 kids and keeps having more. I have personal objections to that on a few levels.

    However they completely support their family without public assistance and seem to instill a good work ethic and education in their children.

    So as an American, I cannot object to their right to reproduce that way. I agree, I "believe" that a major tenet of the Mormon religion is to be fruitful and multiply. However the compounds that they have do not seem deprived...well, socially and culturally perhaps...but not financially. Because as you said, it doest take alot of $$ to support them, but they seem to have organized and developed methods to do so communally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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