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Thread: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    I just don't get how all religious symbols came to be viewed as oppressive......I don't get it. Just because a religious symbol is present, doesn't mean that anyone is saying that religion is better than all others. The majority of people, at the time, felt this best presented an appropriate memorial. Just because the world around the memorial has changed, doesn't mean what the symbol was meant for and whom it stood for has. That is what a memorial is for. A memory. Not to be changed and altered with the times around it. Next thing you know people will say that the crosses over graves in Arlington National Cemetery should be removed as well. It is government property after all.
    The fact of the matter is, the majority of people in this country still subscribe to some sort of Christian religion or belief system and used to be even more predominantly Christian. That means you're going to find a few memorials and landmarks that represent that. Should we change the history of our country just to appease to people today or should we remember that time period in our country's history for what it was, a more Christian time? Shouldn't we remember future moments of our country for what they are going to be? A more progressive and neutral time? I see no issue with that. The automatic belief that any religion presenting a symbol of their beliefs as oppressive and offensive to everyone else is paranoid and delusional IMO.
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I just don't get how all religious symbols came to be viewed as oppressive......I don't get it. Just because a religious symbol is present, doesn't mean that anyone is saying that religion is better than all others. The majority of people, at the time, felt this best presented an appropriate memorial. Just because the world around the memorial has changed, doesn't mean what the symbol was meant for and whom it stood for has. That is what a memorial is for. A memory. Not to be changed and altered with the times around it. Next thing you know people will say that the crosses over graves in Arlington National Cemetery should be removed as well. It is government property after all.
    The fact of the matter is, the majority of people in this country still subscribe to some sort of Christian religion or belief system and used to be even more predominantly Christian. That means you're going to find a few memorials and landmarks that represent that. Should we change the history of our country just to appease to people today or should we remember that time period in our country's history for what it was, a more Christian time? Shouldn't we remember future moments of our country for what they are going to be? A more progressive and neutral time? I see no issue with that. The automatic belief that any religion presenting a symbol of their beliefs as oppressive and offensive to everyone else is paranoid and delusional IMO.
    I think the blame is being pointed outward, when I think some inward reflection is required.

    What has happened is that religion went from something to guide you personally to a weapon to morally judge those around you. Look at the energy (AND MONEY!!!)spent against gays.

    And frankly, some of the talking heads just make a mockery of religion. Bill O'Reilly making "Happy Holidays" out to be a some kind of verbal terrorism against Christians?? What a load of crap. It is a well meaning greeting, not an offense against a religion. Folks who believe it to be offensive WANT to be offended.

    I wish folks would cut it out with the Arlington cemetery comments. It is a national cemetery and people are buried and their INDIVIDUAL religious insignias are there. I do not now why that concept is so difficult.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I just don't get how all religious symbols came to be viewed as oppressive......I don't get it. Just because a religious symbol is present, doesn't mean that anyone is saying that religion is better than all others. The majority of people, at the time, felt this best presented an appropriate memorial. Just because the world around the memorial has changed, doesn't mean what the symbol was meant for and whom it stood for has. That is what a memorial is for. A memory. Not to be changed and altered with the times around it. Next thing you know people will say that the crosses over graves in Arlington National Cemetery should be removed as well. It is government property after all.
    The fact of the matter is, the majority of people in this country still subscribe to some sort of Christian religion or belief system and used to be even more predominantly Christian. That means you're going to find a few memorials and landmarks that represent that. Should we change the history of our country just to appease to people today or should we remember that time period in our country's history for what it was, a more Christian time? Shouldn't we remember future moments of our country for what they are going to be? A more progressive and neutral time? I see no issue with that. The automatic belief that any religion presenting a symbol of their beliefs as oppressive and offensive to everyone else is paranoid and delusional IMO.
    At least until they put up somebody else's religious symbol.
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Visit any cemetery and you will see all sorts of crosses in remembrance of those who are gone. Some graves are without crosses or any religious symbols. Why is that?

    It is because people want to preserve a place in their memory, to pause for a moment in thought for those who had an effect on their lives, families, friends or, in this case, those who died representing their country. The cross is just another way of sharing common remembrances. A large Star of David honoring Jewish War dead would serve the same purpose, though the atheists would probably want that down also for 'promoting religion'.

    Atheists stand for nothing and that's what they will use to support their nihilism. They seem very bitter against those who feel their is more in life than their nothingness.
    For purposes of this discussion and your definition, I am an atheist.

    I do not mind people promoting religion at all. When individuals are out proselytizing on the street, I can walk right by and my feelings are not hurt. When they do it on television, I change the channels.

    My objection comes, and the law is broken, when GOVERNMENT promotes religion. The Constitution demands neutrality from the government on religious subjects and themes, and especially actions.

    Why that is so difficult for some people to understand is beyond me.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    http://files.schuminweb.com/journal/...emetery-03.jpg
    http://image.shutterstock.com/displa...y-69019126.jpg
    http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/f...ricangrave.jpg
    http://www.pagancentric.org/WordPres...gtonpagans.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/YsI8u.jpg


    Not quite the same, those were chosen by the indivdiual (or in the absence of a directive, by their next of kin ) to represent the faith of the fallen warriors interned there. The government didn't impose them on the families.

    From the links above you can view not only Christian symbols, but Jewish, Wican, and Atheist symbology.


    >>>>
    And as I recall, the Wiccans had to bring a lawsuit to get their symbols admitted at Arlington several years ago. They had been excluded.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    http://files.schuminweb.com/journal/...emetery-03.jpg
    http://image.shutterstock.com/displa...y-69019126.jpg
    http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/f...ricangrave.jpg
    http://www.pagancentric.org/WordPres...gtonpagans.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/YsI8u.jpg


    Not quite the same, those were chosen by the indivdiual (or in the absence of a directive, by their next of kin ) to represent the faith of the fallen warriors interned there. The government didn't impose them on the families.

    From the links above you can view not only Christian symbols, but Jewish, Wican, and Atheist symbology.


    >>>>
    Yes, I checked it all out before I made the claim and also noted that the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier has no religious symbols at all, at least as far as I could tell. It seems that the government is trying to be sensitive about all religions.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by fallujah_baby View Post
    As a die-hard atheist, I believe the cross should go. The cross does an injustice to all atheists and to peoples of other religions who died in the American wars that this cross was meant to memorialize.
    that's idiotic.



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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I just don't get how all religious symbols came to be viewed as oppressive......I don't get it. Just because a religious symbol is present, doesn't mean that anyone is saying that religion is better than all others. The majority of people, at the time, felt this best presented an appropriate memorial. Just because the world around the memorial has changed, doesn't mean what the symbol was meant for and whom it stood for has. That is what a memorial is for. A memory. Not to be changed and altered with the times around it. Next thing you know people will say that the crosses over graves in Arlington National Cemetery should be removed as well. It is government property after all.
    The fact of the matter is, the majority of people in this country still subscribe to some sort of Christian religion or belief system and used to be even more predominantly Christian. That means you're going to find a few memorials and landmarks that represent that. Should we change the history of our country just to appease to people today or should we remember that time period in our country's history for what it was, a more Christian time? Shouldn't we remember future moments of our country for what they are going to be? A more progressive and neutral time? I see no issue with that. The automatic belief that any religion presenting a symbol of their beliefs as oppressive and offensive to everyone else is paranoid and delusional IMO.
    People who despise America or hate that America is essentially a free and capitalist society try to destroy all of the foundations of this Nation in order to try to fashion America into something it isnt'



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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I just don't get how all religious symbols came to be viewed as oppressive......
    Take a history course in religious oppression not just of each other but of atheists too. Wait, I already know you won't so I'll lay out your 4 future posts on the matter:

    1. Let's not blame the religions! Let's blame the believers. Hm, I'm not sure why we should do that. The believers act in the name of the religion and the oppression they bring to other is usually based on scripture.
    2. Yeah! But some Atheists oppressed people too!Sure they did. Just not in the "name" of atheism. They did it in the name of Communism, Corporatism, Fascism etc. Atheism was an afterthought and not a driving force.
    3. You're a bigot! How? Because I don't want the road for government based religious oppression to be opened? Let it be erected on private land. The government has no business endorsing religions.
    4. It's just a cross! What harm could it do? Christians seem to have taken a page from Saul Alinsky's manual on this:

    If you start with nothing, demand 100 per cent, then compromise for 30 per cent, you're 30 per cent ahead.
    The Constitution gives you nothing in the form religion. You want that 30% badly.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 12-15-13 at 12:06 PM.
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    For purposes of this discussion and your definition, I am an atheist.

    I do not mind people promoting religion at all. When individuals are out proselytizing on the street, I can walk right by and my feelings are not hurt. When they do it on television, I change the channels.

    My objection comes, and the law is broken, when GOVERNMENT promotes religion. The Constitution demands neutrality from the government on religious subjects and themes, and especially actions.

    Why that is so difficult for some people to understand is beyond me.
    I'm an agnostic, Henry David, and respond the same way you do with the exception of seeing seeing a cross on a hill, or on a highway roadside to mark where a pedestrian has been killed. It's government land there also but what pettiness would be required for anyone to ask that the cross be moved because its the government promoting religion?

    I really don't care about seeing a cross and feel it might make a nice break in the landscape and could wonder at the strong feeling of anyone who put it there.. A tree might have the same effect. A billboard would not.

    I don't know how the government is promoting religion in this instance. A cross has meaning to some and not to others. I don't know why people would spend all their time and money on a threat that isn't there. It seems like a live and let live situation and these people attacking a cross put up by their fellow Americans should be putting their time and energy to better use elsewhere.

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