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Thread: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Posted by FederalRepublic
    You must have missed the sign at the bottom that says "All who see this monument must say 5 Hail Mary's. Failure to comply is punishible by $50 fine and 100 hours community service at Our Lady of the Lake Catholic Church."
    Sorry to say I missed it and when I google all is see is a the quote on this forum. If this sign about the 5 Hail Marys in really there than the sign should be removed and the problem would be solved.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I proclaimed nothing, you started with the "Do you have proof that other symbols have been denied?" stuff. All I said was that a monument celebrating war heroes should be as inclusive as possible (so that as many people feel at home there to honor their fallen loved ones) and as accessible as possible and I still stand by that.

    I did not proclaim that other symbols were denied, heck, I didn't even bring up other symbols (you did) and I already said that I have not problem with a cross on the monument to begin with. All I am saying is that a public monument should not be handed over to a private organization if there is no need to do so.
    If you want an 'inclusive' war monument then why not have one with a swastika on it, or the rising sun. These petty trivializations just make atheists appear stupid, despite perhaps having some legitimate arguments elsewhere.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    The words "religion" in the constitution were meant for all religions but a simple cross should not be seen as a representation or a favoring of one religion over the others.
    Which part of the constitution are you referring to in this claim?

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    No, that is evading the issue. The USA should stop judges like this from doing stuff like this.
    How is it evading the issue? It offers a direct compromise that maintains the historical integrety of the site while removing the dilemma of public ownership.

    The cross should have never been removed and that is the issue.
    Why, because you got some bug up your ass against religion? Sorry, chief, the world doesn't cater to your pet peeves

    Turning it over to a private entity just evades the issue instead of solving it.
    Actually the issue seems it offers a solution you don't like

    And this is a very different thing than the ten commandments issue, that is a truly christian kind of a thing and is much more religious than the humble grave cross ever was.

    The words "religion" in the constitution were meant for all religions but a simple cross should not be seen as a representation or a favoring of one religion over the others.
    I'm not following

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If you want an 'inclusive' war monument then why not have one with a swastika on it, or the rising sun. These petty trivializations just make atheists appear stupid, despite perhaps having some legitimate arguments elsewhere.
    I was not aware this monument was in Japan or in Germany, also I was not aware that this monument was for German and Japanese war dead. This is still an American monument last time and I checked for US victims of war.

    Atheist trivialize nothing and we also do not make ridiculous remarks about swastika's or the rising sun. This is a monument to all the fallen US service men, no matter if they are Jewish, Muslim (not likely but who knows), native American faith, Christians or no faith.

    That some dumb atheist objected to a cross and that a dumb judge agreed with him is not the fault of "Atheists" but of one or a few atheists. Just like there are a whole host of different christians there are a lot of different atheists, some go insane about something stupid like a simple funeral cross but most (most likely) could care less. They are much more bothered with praying at school (through the intercom) than a cross on a monument.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Which part of the constitution are you referring to in this claim?
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    This was meant for all religions or those who do not have a religion. Most likely (some statements at least suggest this from something I read) the founding father did not want any religion singled out. Religion was not the same as Christianity (as radio talking head Bryan Fisher said) but religion in the eyes of the founding fathers (at least some of the most important ones) included atheists, Muslims, Jews and other religions.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    How is it evading the issue? It offers a direct compromise that maintains the historical integrety of the site while removing the dilemma of public ownership.
    There should not be a dilemma regarding public ownership of such a monument. This judge overreached IMHO and should never have ordered the removal. These kind of things have to be resolved by changing the laws in the US and not by handing monuments over to private groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Why, because you got some bug up your ass against religion? Sorry, chief, the world doesn't cater to your pet peeves
    I am sorry, but "the cross should have never been removed" must not mean the same to you as it means to me. I objected to the removal of the cross. So please, do not accuse me of things I did not write or mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Actually the issue seems it offers a resolution you don't like
    No, it is not a solution. Atheists should fight important battles and not petty ones like this cross issue (on this monument).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I'm not following
    A cross (like on a grave) is not a particularly religious item and should not have lead to it's removal from this monument. I do not think the first amendment should be used for removing this cross from this monument.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I was not aware this monument was in Japan or in Germany, also I was not aware that this monument was for German and Japanese war dead. This is still an American monument last time and I checked for US victims of war.
    Therefore inclusiveness is not an issue.

    Atheist trivialize nothing and we also do not make ridiculous remarks about swastika's or the rising sun. This is a monument to all the fallen US service men, no matter if they are Jewish, Muslim (not likely but who knows), native American faith, Christians or no faith.
    Right. I feel sure that was the intention.

    That some dumb atheist objected to a cross and that a dumb judge agreed with him is not the fault of "Atheists" but of one or a few atheists. Just like there are a whole host of different christians there are a lot of different atheists, some go insane about something stupid like a simple funeral cross but most (most likely) could care less. They are much more bothered with praying at school (through the intercom) than a cross on a monument.
    Yes, these are dumb atheists and smarter atheists should speak out about this silliness. It only gives atheism a bad name. Leftists and rightists should do the same.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    This was meant for all religions or those who do not have a religion. Most likely (some statements at least suggest this from something I read) the founding father did not want any religion singled out. Religion was not the same as Christianity (as radio talking head Bryan Fisher said) but religion in the eyes of the founding fathers (at least some of the most important ones) included atheists, Muslims, Jews and other religions.
    Yes, and in the case of the cross in question Congress is clearly not establishing a religion but it does appear to be prohibiting the free expression thereof.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    It does no injustice. Whether when it was erected, or now.
    Most of those folks who it represents were Christians.
    But not all. And there's the rub. The United States military is not an armed branch of Christianity, it is an armed branch of the American government.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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