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Thread: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    This is also interesting....

    Roles both religious and secular have been ascribed to each cross. Each has on occasion been used by members of the public for Christian religious purposes.10 Each cross also has been dedicated as a memorial to an individual or individuals who have died. 11 In addition, the cross on Mt. Helix *1424 serves pilots as a navigational aid, and the cross on Mt. Soledad assists surveyors and seismologists.12
    While the two crosses clearly are alike in many respects, they also are distinguishable. In particular, it should be noted that whereas the property on which the Mt. Soledad Latin cross stands has been public for as long as the cross has stood there, the property on which the Mt. Helix Latin cross stands did not become public until after the cross had been erected on it. 13

    https://www.casetext.com/case/murphy-v-bilbray/
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    [QUOTE=j-mac;1062672797]Do you have a link to this "detailed history" you pulled this from? [/QOUTE]

    MURPHY v. BILBRAY | Leagle.com

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Look, you side with the atheists, I understand that,
    Wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    but I wonder why it bothers you, and them so?
    I'm a Christian, crosses don't bother me in the least.

    What bothers me is how the City used a liberal playbook tactic. Tell a lie, tell it often enough and the uninformed will believe it. The City used veterans, I've stood at that Cross in the early 80's. There was nothing there but the cross. Not one indication that it was intended as a "War Memorial", that is a charade created in 1989 because of the case filing. If the cross had been intended as a "war memorial" then explain why NOT ONE Veterans Day or Memorial Day observance resulted but that for EVERY year the Mt. Soledad Association requested and received Easter Sunday Service permits?


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It's been there for a hundred damned years for goodness sake, and no one had a problem until the atheists got their pink panties in a bunch.
    2013-1954 = 59 years.

    1989 (when the suit was filed) - 1954 = 35 years


    >>>>

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Do you have a link to this "detailed history" you pulled this from?
    MURPHY v. BILBRAY | Leagle.com
    Thank you, I figured it out...

    Wrong.
    Could have fooled me....You are using their arguments, citing their law suits, and it would seem wanting the cross removed. Am I wrong?

    I'm a Christian, crosses don't bother me in the least.

    What bothers me is how the City used a liberal playbook tactic. Tell a lie, tell it often enough and the uninformed will believe it. The City used veterans, I've stood at that Cross in the early 80's. There was nothing there but the cross. Not one indication that it was intended as a "War Memorial", that is a charade created in 1989 because of the case filing. If the cross had been intended as a "war memorial" then explain why NOT ONE Veterans Day or Memorial Day observance resulted but that for EVERY year the Mt. Soledad Association requested and received Easter Sunday Service permits?
    Well, you yourself acknowledge that there was a story in 1954 about it being dedicated as a WWI, WWII, and Korean war memorial, one article, or a thousand it doesn't matter. What matters is what the city council approved. Why do the Easter Sunday services bother you, if as you say being a Christian and all?

    2013-1954 = 59 years.

    1989 (when the suit was filed) - 1954 = 35 years
    So my math was a little off...The first cross was erected there in 1913....2013 - 1913 = 100 years.

    Regardless, you are not addressing my question, which is, if they erected this cross in 1954, why then did it take them until 1989 to start bitching about it?

    And further, are you aware that this isn't the only cross/memorial under attack by this group of atheists? What is their problem? Can't they live and let live?
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Congratulations. That's making a choice. You're choosing it. And you're choosing to try to deny that choice to others. Don't do that.



    That's okay, because no one is actually trying to do that. What we're trying to do it keep religion from forcing itself on people who don't want a part of it.



    You would be wrong there, but that's not even the issue. Forcing religion on people is evil. I hope you can at least agree to that.



    Again, your choice. You wouldn't mind. Just because that's your position doesn't mean that it has to be anyone else's.



    Again, you're entitled to whatever symbols you want. Just as anyone else is entitled to whatever symbols, or not, they choose. Me, I don't freak out over anyone's symbols. I just get upset when they decide that their symbols should represent me.



    Again, no one wants to do that. Who tells you that anyone wants this? Whoever they are, stop listening to them. They're lying to you.



    Bolded for emphasis. Because it's hilarious. That is exactly what I am advocating against. Do not assign someone a religious symbol against their will. The person, and only the person, should make that decision.



    That's probably not true. They just didn't have the means to speak out.



    That's what it comes down to for you. It's not a problem for you, so it's not really a problem. Get over yourself. Your opinions aren't universal.

    I find myself having to say the same thing over and over to you. Why is this concept so hard. Don't push a religious icon on someone else. This is a military graveyard. It is owned by the public. It is not a church graveyard. It is public. That means that there can't be a religious requirement. You don't have to be a member of a certain religion, or any religion, to be there. You don't have to subscribe to its ideas or its symbols. You cannot force that on anyone. No one is trying to stop those who wish such a symbol from having one on their graves. But we are trying to stop anyone from putting it on the graves of those who don't want it. Got that? Protecting individual liberty. If you're not behind that, you should be.
    I am not denying anyone a choice, I do not see the reason for the cross to come down, again you asked for a symbol for the military and I gave it to you. There are more military dead buried under the cross than any other symbol, so if there is a symbol, it would be the cross. Now if you aren't trying to do away with the religious symbol over Mount Solidad, then what is it? You sure aren't trying to keep it there. That cross certainly isn't forcing any religion on anyone. It just sits there still, unmoving, untalking and as a quiet memorable to veterans as it was intended.

    If tearing down this cross doesn't fill peoples hearts with joy, why do it. I am sure tearing it down doesn't fill their hearts with sadness as if it did they wouldn't want it taken down. If someone is buried in a military cemetery and doesn't like the cross over them, they are free to change it. But this is about the cross on that mountain, what harm does it do? Why force people to tear it down? It does not promote any religion, it can't, it doesn't talk, it doesn't write, it doesn't file lawsuits. People do that. What it has done since 1913 is provide comfort to probably millions of people who either visited the cemetery or passed by it. Why are you against providing comfort?

    I am free to practice my religion here, so too are you. You're free to practice non-religion and everything else. Why are so many people so scared of a religious symbol? What harm has a religious symbol ever done to you? I just don't understand this at all. Let the cross be, if it was a star of David, I would say the same, if it was just a metal poll with a football on it, I would say the same. It has been their for 100 years or a cross has been there for a hundred years. Why force you non-religion on everyone else? We Buddhist do not do that, you believe as you will, no problem. We Buddhist also respect other religions, we would never have you change or try to make you abandon your religion. I was brought up to believe this country was established on the freedom of religion, NOT free from religion as you are advocating.

    All I can say is shame on you. Let the crosses or any other religious symbol be. They harm no one and provide comfort to some. I will never understand the move to de-religionise this country.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    The simplest solution would have been to allow the land to be sold to a private group that would maintain the memorial. As I understood it, a few private groups offerred and the atheists blocked the sale.
    And I would agree with those atheists. A monument has to be as inclusive as possible and as freely accessible as humanly possible and as long as it is owned by the government this will be guaranteed. Also, private groups can have points of view which may not be agreed with by the government or the people who visit the monument. How would it look if it becomes possible for extreme groups to own such a monument (like for example the KKK) or the socialist party of American/Tea party, scientology or the Church of the Latter Day Saints.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Could have fooled me....You are using their arguments, citing their law suits, and it would seem wanting the cross removed. Am I wrong?
    I'm siting the lawsuits in the case that detail history of the cross. I have no desire to have the cross removed. The common sense solution to would have been to sell the property in an open bid. If the new owner wanted to keep it. That's fine, however that is not what the city tried to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, you yourself acknowledge that there was a story in 1954 about it being dedicated as a WWI, WWII, and Korean war memorial, one article, or a thousand it doesn't matter. What matters is what the city council approved. Why do the Easter Sunday services bother you, if as you say being a Christian and all?
    The Easter Sunday Services don't bother me at all. What bothers me is for the City to claim it's a War Memorial and then dedicated it on a religious holiday instead of Memorial day which was right around the corner. What bothers me is that for 35-years the city didn't honor Veterans at their "War Memorial"which was actually on the maps and government documents as "Soledad Easter Cross", and when I was in San Diego that's what we knew it by, but when called on it suddenly they decide to use the Veterans as a shield in their lawsuit.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Regardless, you are not addressing my question, which is, if they erected this cross in 1954, why then did it take them until 1989 to start bitching about it?
    You'd have to ask Paulson, but if IIRC he's dead now.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And further, are you aware that this isn't the only cross/memorial under attack by this group of atheists? What is their problem? Can't they live and let live?
    You'd have to ask them.

    I think it's valid to tell atheists trying to remove established memorials to pound sand. But don't lie about it and hide from the real reason the memorials were erected.



    >>>>

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    I'm siting the lawsuits in the case that detail history of the cross. I have no desire to have the cross removed. The common sense solution to would have been to sell the property in an open bid. If the new owner wanted to keep it. That's fine, however that is not what the city tried to do.




    The Easter Sunday Services don't bother me at all. What bothers me is for the City to claim it's a War Memorial and then dedicated it on a religious holiday instead of Memorial day which was right around the corner. What bothers me is that for 35-years the city didn't honor Veterans at their "War Memorial"which was actually on the maps and government documents as "Soledad Easter Cross", and when I was in San Diego that's what we knew it by, but when called on it suddenly they decide to use the Veterans as a shield in their lawsuit.




    You'd have to ask Paulson, but if IIRC he's dead now.




    You'd have to ask them.

    I think it's valid to tell atheists trying to remove established memorials to pound sand. But don't lie about it and hide from the real reason the memorials were erected.



    >>>>
    Ok, so, let me see if I have this right...You don't have a problem with the cross being there, you don't have a problem with there being a service there on Easter Sunday, and you don't want the cross brought down....Your main beef is who owns the land, private vs. public...And that is it?
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    And I would agree with those atheists. A monument has to be as inclusive as possible and as freely accessible as humanly possible and as long as it is owned by the government this will be guaranteed.
    Stop there Peter, Do you have proof that other symbols have been denied?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, so, let me see if I have this right...You don't have a problem with the cross being there,
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    you don't have a problem with there being a service there on Easter Sunday,
    Correct

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    and you don't want the cross brought down....
    Correct

    The city should just have sold the land in an open bid process and down with it. (The process they tried wasn't a true open bid.)

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Your main beef is who owns the land, private vs. public...And that is it?
    Secondary. My main "beef" is that the city used Veterans for political purposes. They ignored them (as it pertains to the cross) until such time as we became a convenient made up excuse. After ignoring us since the Cross was erected suddenly "its all about the Veterans" as an emotional appeal instead of being straight up and working through a solution that could have made both sides happy.



    >>>>

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Stop there Peter, Do you have proof that other symbols have been denied?
    I don't, but why risk it. The government can maintain the monument and there is no need to have private organizations to take it from their hands.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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