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Thread: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

  1. #101
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    I know the first cross was erected in 1913 and the City took over the property in 1916, however I could have confused it with the Mt. Helix case where Cyrus Yawkey deeded the property to San Diego County in 1925 before his passing.

    Been a number of years since I've looked into the matter so I just reviewed the decision in Murphy v. Bilbray (which I had in a old folder where I keep reference documents sometimes when involved with debates). The history reviewed in the court documents clearly indicate Mr. Yawkey deeded the property to the county however doesn't say one way or the other for the Mt. Soledad property - only that the city acquired it in 1916.

    So we'll go with the city using eminent domain.


    >>>>
    Are we even talking wbout the same deal?...lol
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Are we even talking wbout the same deal?...lol
    Commonly referred to as Murphy v. Bilbray, United States District Court (Southern District of California). The case was a consolidation of Murphy v. BilBray, Paulson v. City of San Diego, and Ellis v. City of La Mesa. It addressed the Mt. Helix Cross (Murphy), the Mt. Soledad Cross (Paulson), and religious symbology in La Mesa. The decision documents extensive history of the cases in the decision.

    I had a copy of the PDF decision on my computer from historical files. Looks like the decision is online at -->> MURPHY v. BILBRAY | Leagle.com



    (Disclaimer: I don't know if the web page matches the decision [ although it appears to], I have a PDF copy of the court record.)

    >>>>

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Commonly referred to as Murphy v. Bilbray, United States District Court (Southern District of California). The case was a consolidation of Murphy v. BilBray, Paulson v. City of San Diego, and Ellis v. City of La Mesa. It addressed the Mt. Helix Cross (Murphy), the Mt. Soledad Cross (Paulson), and religious symbology in La Mesa. The decision documents extensive history of the cases in the decision.

    I had a copy of the PDF decision on my computer from historical files. Looks like the decision is online at -->> MURPHY v. BILBRAY | Leagle.com



    (Disclaimer: I don't know if the web page matches the decision [ although it appears to], I have a PDF copy of the court record.)

    >>>>
    After reading through the case I have to wonder at just what wimps these 'deeply offended' atheists are. Their families should be embarrassed for their whining behavior.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    The only question I have is whether the land the cross is on is owned by the government or a private individual. It does not say in the article. If owned by the government, I can see the decision.... maybe. Was this really an endorsement of religion, or is it similar to a tombstone, which would be a memorial, as opposed to a religious symbol. Of course if the land is owned by a private individual, then what is erected up there is none of the government's damn business.

    Your thoughts on this?

    EDIT: My bad. The land IS owned by the government, so the first question remains. Is the cross there really an endorsement of a religion or not? I believe it's not, and therefore disagree with the decision.

    NOTE: I need to learn to read my own damn links. LOL.
    I understand the decision, and although I agree with the legal rationale, I'm really rather sad about it. This cross had stood for centuries, and there was never an intent to insult those veterans who weren't specifically Christian. It was a memorial for all who served, and regardless of religious belief/non-belief the vast majority of Americans understood this.

    I'd hate to see it torn down.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    The only question I have is whether the land the cross is on is owned by the government or a private individual. It does not say in the article. If owned by the government, I can see the decision.... maybe. Was this really an endorsement of religion, or is it similar to a tombstone, which would be a memorial, as opposed to a religious symbol. Of course if the land is owned by a private individual, then what is erected up there is none of the government's damn business.

    Your thoughts on this?

    EDIT: My bad. The land IS owned by the government, so the first question remains. Is the cross there really an endorsement of a religion or not? I believe it's not, and therefore disagree with the decision.

    NOTE: I need to learn to read my own damn links. LOL.
    There are crosses on grave stones in US Military cemeteries... these need to come down to.
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I understand the decision, and although I agree with the legal rationale, I'm really rather sad about it. This cross had stood for centuries and there was never an intent to insult those veterans who weren't specifically Christian. It was a memorial for all who served, and regardless of religious belief/non-belief the vast majority of Americans understood this.

    I'd hate to see it torn down.
    Gawk!!! When I inadvertently typed the word "centuries", clearly I meant "decades".

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I understand the decision, and although I agree with the legal rationale, I'm really rather sad about it. This cross had stood for centuries, and there was never an intent to insult those veterans who weren't specifically Christian. It was a memorial for all who served, and regardless of religious belief/non-belief the vast majority of Americans understood this.

    I'd hate to see it torn down.
    I only seems like a neutral default because of the position of privilege that Christianity enjoys in this country. What would be lost by having a non-religious symbol there? What if it were a heart, or an eagle, or a flower? Or perhaps something specifically military? That would be more appropriate a memorial, since all of the people buried there are soldiers, right? Perhaps a globe to symbolize their sacrifice to make a better world? There are many many symbols that would be better than a cross, an instrument of brutal torture and execution.
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I only seems like a neutral default because of the position of privilege that Christianity enjoys in this country. What would be lost by having a non-religious symbol there? What if it were a heart, or an eagle, or a flower? Or perhaps something specifically military? That would be more appropriate a memorial, since all of the people buried there are soldiers, right? Perhaps a globe to symbolize their sacrifice to make a better world? There are many many symbols that would be better than a cross, an instrument of brutal torture and execution.
    Crosses has been used to mark the graves of U.S. military soldiers before the Revolutionary War. Even overseas crosses dot the cemeteries of U.S. fallen in war in far off lands. If there is a symbol for a military death, it is the cross.
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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I only seems like a neutral default because of the position of privilege that Christianity enjoys in this country. What would be lost by having a non-religious symbol there? What if it were a heart, or an eagle, or a flower? Or perhaps something specifically military? That would be more appropriate a memorial, since all of the people buried there are soldiers, right? Perhaps a globe to symbolize their sacrifice to make a better world? There are many many symbols that would be better than a cross, an instrument of brutal torture and execution.

    no, it's because it has stood there for decades. The same thinking would apply to any symbol standing for that duration.

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    Re: U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

    As a take on "crosses" on U.S. government land..
    In the state of Montana, U.S. 2 crosses the entire northern section of the state east-to-west..Long drive to say the least..
    It is not an exaggeration to say that around every bend in the road is a "formation" of crosses, not very large crosses..
    We saw from one to the most of NINE crosses, all representing Road Accidents .
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