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Thread: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    There goes freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, all in one sentence. Well done. LOL.
    I've never made any suggestions that I am in favor of Freedoms. Remember that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    SO then you believe that government control, including taking guns away from the public and a government imposed health care system would be appropriate? Interesting.
    I beleive Government has the Responsibility and Duty to ensure that those who wish to engage in the Privileges of Citizenship need to first prove that they understand and can undertake the Duties of Citizenship. After that gun ownership would be fine. In terms of private businesses, government would have little to no input in them or restriction on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    And by that logic they wouldn't making money, and therefore wouldn't have a need to be taxed. But that is not the way it is. They are very public, and many religious institutions impose their will and beliefs into society and the government. Therefore even from the church end is not a separation of church and state. So your little argument that they shouldn't have to pay taxes still does not hold any water.
    Then let's look at all of the other non-profit organizations (colleges, private charities, etc...) that shold lose their tax exempt status as well. In for a penny, in for a pound.

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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post

    I beleive Government has the Responsibility and Duty to ensure that those who wish to engage in the Privileges of Citizenship need to first prove that they understand and can undertake the Duties of Citizenship. After that gun ownership would be fine. In terms of private businesses, government would have little to no input in them or restriction on them.
    Giving the government total authority over everyone and everything, total government control as you stated before, would extend to them telling you if you can or cannot own a gun, or even revoking that priveledge for any reason that they see fit. By your own words it should be completely up to Obama whether or not you should be given the priveledge to own any firearm at any point in time, and up to him to take it away from you. Also it stands to reason that Obama has the right mandate Obama care to you and whomever he wishes among other things deemed appropriate by him.

    Then let's look at all of the other non-profit organizations (colleges, private charities, etc...) that shold lose their tax exempt status as well. In for a penny, in for a pound.
    Wait wait wait. Are you suggesting that those places should lose their tax exempt status? What makes a church so special? Again you are going right back to special rights, not equal rights.

    Total government control over the people, endorsing Obamacare, agreeing that you do not have the right to bare arms, and fighting for special rights. You may be the most liberal person I've ever spoke to on here.
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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I agree with this decision. In giving clergy members special treatment over everybody else, when paying taxes does not hinder their ability to do their job, the establishment clause of the US Constitution is violated.
    I not only agree, but I don't think any person or organization should be tax exempt.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    Giving the government total authority over everyone and everything, total government control as you stated before, would extend to them telling you if you can or cannot own a gun, or even revoking that priveledge for any reason that they see fit. By your own words it should be completely up to Obama whether or not you should be given the priveledge to own any firearm at any point in time, and up to him to take it away from you. Also it stands to reason that Obama has the right mandate Obama care to you and whomever he wishes among other things deemed appropriate by him.
    No, and you have missed a major point. What I'm discussing is the way the society would work if I had the opportunity to re-order it. In such a society someone like Obama could not come to power. Even if they did, the changes he has made would not have been possible because the Founding Documents of the nation could not be changed. However you are correct that firearms ownership and many other things would be at the behest of the Government, based on whether or not you are able to maintain a properly moral lifestyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    Wait wait wait. Are you suggesting that those places should lose their tax exempt status? What makes a church so special? Again you are going right back to special rights, not equal rights.
    I am suggesting that if you take it away from one (churches) you must take it away from all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    Total government control over the people, endorsing Obamacare, agreeing that you do not have the right to bare arms, and fighting for special rights. You may be the most liberal person I've ever spoke to on here.
    Total Government Control over many parts of society, YES. Others, NO. Obamacare, in fact ANY government involvement in health services, NO. The Privilege to Bear Arms, like all others would be based on whether or not you could maintain a properly moral lifestyle.

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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    No, and you have missed a major point. What I'm discussing is the way the society would work if I had the opportunity to re-order it. In such a society someone like Obama could not come to power. Even if they did, the changes he has made would not have been possible because the Founding Documents of the nation could not be changed. However you are correct that firearms ownership and many other things would be at the behest of the Government, based on whether or not you are able to maintain a properly moral lifestyle.
    And when you are deemed to not be living a proper moral lifestyle for any reason you will surrender all fire arms without question or delay?

    I am suggesting that if you take it away from one (churches) you must take it away from all.
    Which is it? Special rights for different groups of people, or equal rights for them all.

    Total Government Control over many parts of society, YES. Others, NO. Obamacare, in fact ANY government involvement in health services, NO. The Privilege to Bear Arms, like all others would be based on whether or not you could maintain a properly moral lifestyle.
    Quit riding the fence here. You are calling for total government control. So just fall in line and do what your leader tells you without question. Your words not mine.

    And further more you stating that you want total government control yet telling them they shouldn't be able to tax are contridictions.
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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    And when you are deemed to not be living a proper moral lifestyle for any reason you will surrender all fire arms without question or delay?
    When directed to do so by a properly moral Government, I would do so without a second thought. Now realize that I don't believe any such thing has existed in the United States since prior to 1860.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    Which is it? Special rights for different groups of people, or equal rights for them all.
    What it should be is a decision.... Do we give ALL private social welfare and spiritual organizations tax-exempt status or NONE of them. Personally, I'd prefer that we not tax ANY business, and couldn't really care which way you folks go, so long as you're consistant with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    Quit riding the fence here. You are calling for total government control. So just fall in line and do what your leader tells you without question. Your words not mine.
    I believe that there are many things the Government should be involved in. With regard to those things, Governmental control needs to be Total and Absolute. Beyond that the Government should have NO power or involvement whatsoever. It's a Black - White concept. All or Nothing. Of course we could probably discuss where that line runs for hours, if you're really interested.

    So long as we're talking about a properly moral Government, one should absolutely fall into line, and I would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    And further more you stating that you want total government control yet telling them they shouldn't be able to tax are contridictions.
    Again, the Government has an appropriate focus. Business and Religion are not within the limits of that focus. Taxing individuals is one thing. Taxing businesses, any form of progressive tax system, etc.... is something entirely different.

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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    When directed to do so by a properly moral Government, I would do so without a second thought. Now realize that I don't believe any such thing has existed in the United States since prior to 1860.
    Who detemines a proper moral government in your little totalitarian society? Certainly not you (meaning the individual) considering we all have different morals?

    I believe that there are many things the Government should be involved in. With regard to those things, Governmental control needs to be Total and Absolute. Beyond that the Government should have NO power or involvement whatsoever. It's a Black - White concept. All or Nothing. Of course we could probably discuss where that line runs for hours, if you're really interested.

    So long as we're talking about a properly moral Government, one should absolutely fall into line, and I would.
    Start a thread somewhere appropriate and IM me the link.

    Again, the Government has an appropriate focus. Business and Religion are not within the limits of that focus. Taxing individuals is one thing. Taxing businesses, any form of progressive tax system, etc.... is something entirely different.
    Seriously? This entire thread is about taxing individuals within the clergy. The exact opposite of the point you are arguing here. Consistency you say?
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Care to support that bold assertion using a precedent?
    A claim under the establishment clause is the only thing that simply being a citizen automatically gives a person standing to bring. There are not strong enough precedents for keeping religious organizations from exploiting their privilege at the expense of the secular. This case may end up being one such precedent.

    Tax law special provision overturned by equal protection argument:

    FindLaw | Cases and Codes
    That's about a state treating its own citizens and citizens of other states differently. That is a far more common application of the 14th than anything to do with religion. Believe it or not, but "treating people differently" is treated differently depending on the circumstance.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Surely you know that if the door is opened to tax religious clergy, and church's that could invariably lead to government excluding religion from society in this country....And I think there might be a little problem of the 1st amendment for you to get around...."nor the free exercise thereof."
    Why would the clergy have a special tax break that the rest of us don't have? It seems to me that giving them one would be a violation of the First amendment.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Judge strikes down law that gives clergy members tax-free housing allowances

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Why would the clergy have a special tax break that the rest of us don't have? It seems to me that giving them one would be a violation of the First amendment.
    Priests take a vow of poverty. And most clergy I have ever met from other denominations are of a modest income. I'm not talking about the tv charlatans that thrive off of donations, but rather the bulk of clergy in this country which are lower middle income. As my understanding is that clergy have always gotten an exemption for their housing because in most cases the house is owned by the church.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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