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Thread: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

  1. #41
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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I would disagree. I generally hold share the view with Hitchens
    Here is a good interview with him talking about the civil war in russia Christopher Hitchens on Trotsky (part 1 of 3) - YouTube
    I'm not sure what the breezy-British hand-waving discussion of "charisma" and (significant, indeed) journalistic and strategic talents of the approximately worst person ever produced by the Jewish diaspora has to do with the sincerity (or lack thereof) of the worst (as in: most murderous) person ever to emerge from the Russian ethnic crucible.

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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    They dont look like nice guys. Communists?
    Nationalists. "Svoboda" ("Liberty" - yeah, kind of) - the inheritors of the "tradition" that includes of good deal of anti-Semitism, ethnic anti-Russian and anti-Polish, etc ugliness.

    Not allies you generally want to have.

    But. And I am speaking as a Pole - and 1/8 Russian - who has a lot a Jewish friends - and no special connections to anything specifically Ukrainian:

    This is a cold (hopefully) civil war. Just like almost 100 years ago "my people" (the Constitutional Democrats, the classical liberals of the Russian Empire) had to fight and die on the same side as the assorted monarchists, nationalists and socialists - against the totalitarian monster, we have here a - much less dramatic, but just as clear a choice: Stand up for the bare minimum of civilization and human dignity - or accept the crudest, most shameless (well, outside of places like North Korea and Venezuela) rule by brute force.

    "Oh, no, we cannot agree to be free, independent, and exposed to the world of individual opportunities - if it means that some jerk next door will be able to say openly whatever passes through his empty head."

    Seriously?

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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Nationalists. "Svoboda" ("Liberty" - yeah, kind of) - the inheritors of the "tradition" that includes of good deal of anti-Semitism, ethnic anti-Russian and anti-Polish, etc ugliness.

    Not allies you generally want to have.

    But. And I am speaking as a Pole - and 1/8 Russian - who has a lot a Jewish friends - and no special connections to anything specifically Ukrainian:

    This is a cold (hopefully) civil war. Just like almost 100 years ago "my people" (the Constitutional Democrats, the classical liberals of the Russian Empire) had to fight and die on the same side as the assorted monarchists, nationalists and socialists - against the totalitarian monster, we have here a - much less dramatic, but just as clear a choice: Stand up for the bare minimum of civilization and human dignity - or accept the crudest, most shameless (well, outside of places like North Korea and Venezuela) rule by brute force.

    "Oh, no, we cannot agree to be free, independent, and exposed to the world of individual opportunities - if it means that some jerk next door will be able to say openly whatever passes through his empty head."

    Seriously?
    I wish eastern europe didn't have to go through these conflicts, but its been a place of unspeakable cruelty for much of history, certainly recent history.

    Do you think this could ever become a "hot" war?

    I know Russia isnt exactly living la vida loca right now either. Putin is quite unpopular and the nations population is shrinking and leaving.

  4. #44
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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Do you think this could ever become a "hot" war? .
    I am cautiously optimistic.

    When I was leaving the USSR in 1985, there was no doubt in my mind that a civil war is coming - a civil war in a country with nuclear weapons. God help us all.

    And then - then something happened that I would not expect in a thousand years: in 1991, during the inevitable Stalinist coup, the Army refused to follow orders, refused to shoot civilians. Suddenly, it behaved as if were a normal national defense force, not a totalitarian tool of oppression created by Lenin and Trotsky.

    I am not sure the situation in Kiev now is all that similar to the situation in Moscow back then, but the most important thing that is happening is not the flag-waving, or the statue-toppling, or the speech-making (even by cute little American starlets engaged to Ukrainian market-liberal incarnations of Terminator) - or anything Klychko, Putin, Joe Biden (God help us all again) or the Pope can do, pro or contra

    The most important thing is what's going on in the skulls of all these shielded, helmeted, nightstick-wielding "special forces" guys we watch on the screen.

    Because, you see, they still have options. They are not the SS/Gestapo or the KGB/NKVD yet - they still have a lot to lose. And they are also Ukrainians. Very aware of all the horrible history and the urgent need for leaving the worst of it behind.

    My - very tentative - prediction: The order to shoot - with the real ammo - will come - and it will be disobeyed. The powers-that-be will lose whatever is left of their legitimacy, the moment they issue the order. At that precise moment, the Ukraine will cease to be the lesser post-Soviet zombie mini-me of the Putin's Russia, and will become a normal European country.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 12-10-13 at 03:05 PM.

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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    I am cautiously optimistic.

    When I was leaving the USSR in 1985, there was no doubt in my mind that a civil war is coming - a civil war in a country with nuclear weapons. God help us all.

    And then - then something happened that I would not expect in a thousand years: in 1991, during the inevitable Stalinist coup, the Army refused to follow orders, refused to shoot civilians. Suddenly, it behaved as if were a normal national defense force, not a totalitarian tool of oppression created by Lenin and Trotsky.

    I am not sure the situation in Kiev now is all that similar to the situation in Moscow back then, but the most important thing that is happening is not the flag-waving, or the statue-toppling, or the speech-making (even by cute little American starlets engaged to Ukrainian market-liberal incarnations of Terminator) - or anything Klychko, Putin, Joe Biden (God help us all again) or the Pope can do, pro or contra

    The most important thing is what's going on in the skulls of all these shielded, helmeted, nightstick-wielding "special forces" guys we watch on the screen.

    Because, you see, they still have options. They are not the SS/Gestapo or the KGB/NKVD yet - they still have a lot to lose. And they are also Ukrainians. Very aware of all the horrible history and the urgent need for leaving the worst of it behind.

    My - very tentative - prediction: The order to shoot - with the real ammo - will come - and it will be disobeyed. The powers-that-be will lose whatever is left of their legitimacy, the moment they issue the order. At that precise moment, the Ukraine will cease to be the lesser post-Soviet zombie mini-me of the Putin's Russia, and will become a normal European country.
    A very insightful post, I hope you are right and they can leave the past where it is.

  6. #46
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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    My - very tentative - prediction: The order to shoot - with the real ammo - will come - and it will be disobeyed. The powers-that-be will lose whatever is left of their legitimacy, the moment they issue the order. At that precise moment, the Ukraine will cease to be the lesser post-Soviet zombie mini-me of the Putin's Russia, and will become a normal European country.
    Huh?!?!?

    I usually don't mind reading your opinions about former USSR countries.
    But this above...is wow - Ukraine suffers from corruption, poverty and has a lot of other issues including some with "Nationalists" of all kinds - but it is very far from being some totalitarian country which orders shooting protesters with live ammo, the same goes for Russia.

    Cyrylek, I think you need to put your soviet experience to rest and look at these countries as they really are - deeply complicated places, suffering from inability to identify themselves culturally and historically, infested with corruption and a myriad of other problems - but they are not the USSR.

    Cheers,
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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    Huh?!?!?

    I usually don't mind reading your opinions about former USSR countries.
    But this above...is wow - Ukraine suffers from corruption, poverty and has a lot of other issues including some with "Nationalists" of all kinds - but it is very far from being some totalitarian country which orders shooting protesters with live ammo, the same goes for Russia.

    Cyrylek, I think you need to put your soviet experience to rest and look at these countries as they really are - deeply complicated places, suffering from inability to identify themselves culturally and historically, infested with corruption and a myriad of other problems - but they are not the USSR.

    Cheers,
    Fallen.
    FA, correct me if Im wrong but can't militant groups engage in sectarian violence without the nation itself being totalitarian?

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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    FA, correct me if Im wrong but can't militant groups engage in sectarian violence without the nation itself being totalitarian?
    They can, but militant groups don't have anything to do with ordering "Berkut" to shoot or not to shoot on protesters.

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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    Huh?!?!?

    I usually don't mind reading your opinions about former USSR countries.
    But this above...is wow - Ukraine suffers from corruption, poverty and has a lot of other issues including some with "Nationalists" of all kinds - but it is very far from being some totalitarian country which orders shooting protesters with live ammo, the same goes for Russia..
    I will be delighted if your perspective is closer to reality than mine.

    I would give my left (dominant) hand for that.

    But I am afraid you underestimate the addictiveness of power. And moral blindness it causes.

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    Re: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    I will be delighted if your perspective is closer to reality than mine.
    I would give my left (dominant) hand for that.
    But I am afraid you underestimate the addictiveness of power. And moral blindness it causes.
    For the sake of my own country and for the sake of Ukraine, I hope I am right.

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