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Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647]

Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Three-Fifths Compromise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Three-Fifths Compromise was a compromise between Southern and Northern states reached during the Philadelphia Convention of 1787 in which three-fifths of the enumerated population of slaves would be counted for representation purposes regarding both the distribution of taxes and the apportionment of the members of the United States House of Representatives. It was proposed by delegates James Wilson and Roger Sherman.

Delegates opposed to slavery generally wished to count only the free inhabitants of each state, but delegates supportive of slavery, on the other hand, generally wanted to count slaves in their actual numbers. Since slaves could not vote, slaveholders would thus have the benefit of increased representation in the House and the Electoral College. The final compromise of counting "all other persons" as only three-fifths of their actual numbers reduced the power of the slave states relative to the original proposals, but increased it over the northern position

The three fifths thing had nothing to do with black people. It didnt even mention black people. The only racial group it mentioned were native americans. The democrats of the south twisted the words so that they could count their slaves.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

I am 100% for gay marriage, bigotry against gays/lesbians is ridiculous and I think this bakery owner is probably an ignorant pig.

BUT

I think any private business should be able to not sell to anyone they want, for any reason.

Hey, if the public don't like it, don't buy from them and put them out of business.

I know I would never buy from a shop that discriminated in this way.

But that is not a helpful way of solving things. Things only got better for blacks when the laws where changed and this kind of bigotry became unlawful.

As long as people think it is the right of businesses to refuse customers based on race, religion, gender or sexual preference normal service than this should be illegal.

And I am talking about normal services and not special requests, no baker should be forced to make a cake with 2 men or 2 women on the top. They do not sell those and cannot be forced to carry them in their bakery. Also outlandish requests can be refused on artistic grounds or again on not being in the normal things the bakery makes/sells (so no nazi-cake or insulting cakes, disgusting shape cases like swastika's or human reproductive organs, etc.).

But if someone orders a regular wedding cake with no couple on top or things that are put on there referring to gay issues (even if it is a rainbow flag), than there should be no reason to refuse service.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Why couldn't it be? We can make you have to service whoever we wanted. Why don't you accept that? You seemed to accept it for other kinds of property, right? Why is my proposal not fair? We can put it in a contract to practice your rights. What about that? If you don't like it all you have to do is not sign the contract.

Why couldn't it be? Because I am not a company and the law forbids companies to discriminate. You are trying to have a discussion that makes no sense whatsoever just to try and make the point that discriminating gays should be allowed if a company/business feels like it. Well, the law forbids it and all the supposing and what if things you come up with does not change that fact.

Just like you cannot drink and drive (when you choose to drive after having had alcohol), the law forbids discrimination. Simple isn't it. The law is not open for discussion on drink driving and it is not open to the anti-discrimination laws.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

This country was founded on the notion that all people are born as equal, no matter what they believe or who they look like. Discrimination is an act that stems from the notion that some are more worthy than others, based solely on who they are. So... how is this law far from what this country was founded on? Doesn't it uphold the most central idea in our constitution? Sorry, bro, it does. And laws like this, namely the civil rights act, made this country much more able to claim that our policies reinforce the idea that all men are created equal. Maybe you haven't read your history books. I'd give them a look if I were you, because you seem very confused about what is and isn't "American."

And others have said it, but this conversation has everything to do with race AND gender AND sexual orientation. Do you think people here are vigorously arguing about a cake? No, and claiming so reduces the argument to absurdity. This debate is 100% about discrimination laws and the central notion that all of us are equal. You are (one of) the one(s) arguing that businesses have a right to treat people as subhuman. Doesn't sound very American to most of us. You're in a small, extreme minority, and while I cannot change your point of view, I hope that you understand why your viewpoint is so disgusting to the vast majority of Americans who have heard of the struggle for civil rights. Trust me, this information is readily available should you choose to educate yourself on what this country used to be like for minorities.

Our country was founded on Inalienable rights to all citizens such as life, liberty, and property. By virtually being alive one possess these rights and NO MAN has the power to take them away from an individual.

“The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.”--Alexander Hamilton

Civil rights however, stem from society such as the freedom of the press, the right to vote, or the right to a trial by jury......are rights granted by governments to allow citizens the proper enjoyment of their natural rights. For example, you cannot enjoy your natural right to liberty if the government denies you the right to vote nor can you enjoy your right to property if the government takes it from you to give to another. It doesn't take a constitutional law professor to point out how our natural rights would be jeopardized if civil rights were infringed. Nor is it hard to grasp to see that a state law has the potential to violate the constitutional rights of others and through the courts can be challenged.

The First Amendment contains two clauses about the Freedom of Religion. The first part is known as the Establishment Clause, and the second as the Free Exercise Clause.
The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from passing laws that will establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another. The courts have interpreted the establishment clause to accomplish the separation of church and state. The Free Exercise Clause prohibits the government from interfering with a person’s practice of his or her religion. However, religious rituals can be limited by civil and federal laws. Religious freedom is an absolute right, and includes the right to practice any religion of one’s choice, or no religion at all, and to do this without government control.

In the case of the baker in Colorado, the judge denied the baker his constitutional rights in regard to property and the Free Exercise clause which prohibits the government from interfering with a person's practice of his or her religion. Discrimination laws are important but when one violates the constitutional rights of another they are unlawful. If you are going to talk equality sir, then you must also apply it to all having equal treatment under the law. The First Amendment clearly comes into play in this case raising the question of whether an artist or craftsman can be compelled by the government to create objects against his or her wishes. The saddest part of this case is the judge's ruling citing "hurt feelings to others" as a reason to trump a business owner's right to property and right to practice his religious beliefs. Sir, there is a reason why legal experts agree these types of cases are headed to the Supreme Court because when a discrimination law results in discrimination of others it's bad law.
 
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Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

But that is not a helpful way of solving things. Things only got better for blacks when the laws where changed and this kind of bigotry became unlawful.

As long as people think it is the right of businesses to refuse customers based on race, religion, gender or sexual preference normal service than this should be illegal.

And I am talking about normal services and not special requests, no baker should be forced to make a cake with 2 men or 2 women on the top. They do not sell those and cannot be forced to carry them in their bakery. Also outlandish requests can be refused on artistic grounds or again on not being in the normal things the bakery makes/sells (so no nazi-cake or insulting cakes, disgusting shape cases like swastika's or human reproductive organs, etc.).

But if someone orders a regular wedding cake with no couple on top or things that are put on there referring to gay issues (even if it is a rainbow flag), than there should be no reason to refuse service.

Things got better for 'blacks' when the public started growing up and realizing that more or less melanin in one's skin has nothing to do with equality...not when the government did this or that.
Government's don't change people's minds - people are supposed to change government's minds.

IMO, the government has NO business forcing private companies to sell to people they don't want to sell to. That is just fundamentally wrong to me.

The only instance I would allow for if it was a potential life and death situation...but buying cakes is DEFINITELY not that.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Things got better for 'blacks' when the public started growing up and realizing that more or less melanin in one's skin has nothing to do with equality...not when the government did this or that.
Government's don't change people's minds - people are supposed to change government's minds.

IMO, the government has NO business forcing private companies to sell to people they don't want to sell to. That is just fundamentally wrong to me.

The only instance I would allow for if it was a potential life and death situation...but buying cakes is DEFINITELY not that.

That is your opinion, I think most blacks thank these laws for making their lives much much better.

The government has every business forcing companies to not discriminate IMHO.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

A simple example of: "If I knew you were coming, I wouldn't have baked a cake."
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]


In other words religion gives people the right to discriminate, how noble.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Our country was founded on Inalienable rights to all citizens such as life, liberty, and property. By virtually being alive one possess these rights and NO MAN has the power to take them away from an individual.

“The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.”--Alexander Hamilton

Civil rights however, stem from society such as the freedom of the press, the right to vote, or the right to a trial by jury......are rights granted by governments to allow citizens the proper enjoyment of their natural rights. For example, you cannot enjoy your natural right to liberty if the government denies you the right to vote nor can you enjoy your right to property if the government takes it from you to give to another. It doesn't take a constitutional law professor to point out how our natural rights would be jeopardized if civil rights were infringed. Nor is it hard to grasp to see that a state law has the potential to violate the constitutional rights of others and through the courts can be challenged.

The First Amendment contains two clauses about the Freedom of Religion. The first part is known as the Establishment Clause, and the second as the Free Exercise Clause.
The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from passing laws that will establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another. The courts have interpreted the establishment clause to accomplish the separation of church and state. The Free Exercise Clause prohibits the government from interfering with a person’s practice of his or her religion. However, religious rituals can be limited by civil and federal laws. Religious freedom is an absolute right, and includes the right to practice any religion of one’s choice, or no religion at all, and to do this without government control.

In the case of the baker in Colorado, the judge denied the baker his constitutional rights in regard to property and the Free Exercise clause which prohibits the government from interfering with a person's practice of his or her religion. Discrimination laws are important but when one violates the constitutional rights of another they are unlawful. If you are going to talk equality sir, then you must also apply it to all having equal treatment under the law. The First Amendment clearly comes into play in this case raising the question of whether an artist or craftsman can be compelled by the government to create objects against his or her wishes. The saddest part of this case is the judge's ruling citing "hurt feelings to others" as a reason to trump a business owner's right to property and right to practice his religious beliefs. Sir, there is a reason why legal experts agree these types of cases are headed to the Supreme Court because when a discrimination law results in discrimination of others it's bad law.



Yeah....good luck with that one...LOL. There is zero chance that the Supreme Court will rule that businesses have a "natural right" to discriminate. Sorry....ain't gonna happen.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

"Porn" is not a protected class and there are no discrimination laws that apply to it (that I'm aware of).

The one and only thing that keeps it from being so, is that some hot and sweaty judge in a black robe hasn't said so yet. They've already ruled that libraries must provide access to online porn. Of course one will eventually make Porn a protected class of expression.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

That is your opinion, I think most blacks thank these laws for making their lives much much better.

The government has every business forcing companies to not discriminate IMHO.

Interesting.

So what about a lemonade stand?

Should the government be able to force the racist 12 year old owner of a lemonade stand to sell to a 'race' they don't want to?


And what about looks discrimination?

Certain upscale bars won't let ugly people in because they want only 'beautiful' people as patrons.

Should they be forced to let less attractive people in?


And what about female only gyms?

They are discriminating on the basis of gender...should they be forced to let men in?


Slippery slope you are starting down, IMO.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Yeah....good luck with that one...LOL. There is zero chance that the Supreme Court will rule that businesses have a "natural right" to discriminate. Sorry....ain't gonna happen.

Maybe in your a.....mind it is a cut and dried issue but in reality it is a Constitutional dilemma. How will they resolve it when a discrimination law to protect one group violates the property rights and religious freedoms of another group? How will they resolve equal treatment under the law for both? And where does a man's right to practice his religion a right afforded him in the Constitution end or does it?
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Maybe in your a.....mind it is a cut and dried issue but in reality it is a Constitutional dilemma. How will they resolve it when a discrimination law to protect one group violates the property rights and religious freedoms of another group? How will they resolve equal treatment under the law for both? And where does a man's right to practice his religion a right afforded him in the Constitution end or does it?

You only WISH it were a "dilema". There is absolutely no "dilema" here. There is Zero....let me repeat ZERO chance that the Supreme Court is going to find an in-born "natural right" to discriminate. Sorry....ain't gonna happen...as much as you would like it to. Where does a man's right to practice his religion end? Easy....when he/she opens a business and attempts to use that religion as a shield to engage in discrimination. Next Question....
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Well let us look at it from this perspective. Had this been an interracial couple and the baker had denied them a wedding cake because he religiously felt that he could not support interracial marriages, would you have supported that as legitimate free exercise of religion?
Listen, it is not an interracial couple, it is not a man with his dog, it is not any of these things being brought up. It is two gay men asking for a wedding cake and the owner declined because he said his religion precluded him from getting involved in Gay marriage. So they should simply respect that and go elsewhere. Thankfully, not all Gays are this petty.

Actually the persepctive is the same:

1. In one case the baker denies services normally offered to a couple based on a reason not allowed under the law.

2. In the other case the baker denies services normally offered to a couple based on a reason not allowed under the law.​


In both cases the owner claims their "motive" that sould provide special privileges under the law is their personal "religious belief". In one case many support such a special privilege to religious views, in the other the general opinion is that (and I paraphrase) "oh, not that would apply in this case". That calls for the government then decide which "religious views" are valid and which are invalid. It's OK to discriminate against the gays, all you have to do is claim a "religious conviction". But in general a "religious conviction" would not be seen as justified in discriminating against an interracial couple.

The best solution isn't to grand special privileges to claim a religious exemption, the best solution is to recognize the property rights of the owner and allow them to discriminate. It may not be pleasant, but in general the purchasing public will show their support or non-support with their wallets.



>>>>
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Maybe in your a.....mind it is a cut and dried issue but in reality it is a Constitutional dilemma. How will they resolve it when a discrimination law to protect one group violates the property rights and religious freedoms of another group? How will they resolve equal treatment under the law for both? And where does a man's right to practice his religion a right afforded him in the Constitution end or does it?


The already did (the SCOTUS I mean) when they ruled in Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States which upheld the validity of Public Accommodation laws.

"The restaurant and motel proprietors argue also, however, that Congress violated the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment by requiring that they serve Negroes if they serve others. This argument comes down to this: that the broad power of Congress to enact laws deemed necessary and proper to regulate and protect interstate commerce is practically nullified by the negative constitutional commands that no person shall be deprived of "life, liberty, or property without due process of law," and that private property shall not be "taken" for public use without just compensation. In the past, this Court has consistently held that regulation of the use of property by the Federal Government or by the States does not violate either the Fifth or the Fourteenth Amendment."



>>>>
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

so you have no facts to support your statement then? thats what i thought but when you do let us know.
You people are the ones who claim they are born that way. So are Pedophiles. Thus they are the same. Through no fault of their own they were born that way. Thus they are genetic abnormalities or they wouldn't of been born that way.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Maybe in your a.....mind it is a cut and dried issue but in reality it is a Constitutional dilemma. How will they resolve it when a discrimination law to protect one group violates the property rights and religious freedoms of another group? How will they resolve equal treatment under the law for both? And where does a man's right to practice his religion a right afforded him in the Constitution end or does it?

You are at the nub of the problem.

It is my feeling that the Supreme Court, if it ever gets that far, would find in favor of the baker.

Despite the foolish analogies we've seen here this baker was not refusing the two Gay men service. They could buy any goods in the store they wanted. He just did not want to make a wedding cake for Gays because it was against his religion. He clearly has the First Amendment on his side. A wedding cake for Gays is a special order and there is no reason why he should have to make any special order for anyone if he doesn't want to.
 
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Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

1.) nothing is factually being denied to them, the owner, his religious freedom is in tact as i asked before if you think its not gives us the facts as to why its not

2.) well i cant answer for him and dont remeber his content
but "personal not supporting them" is fine by me but if you discrimnainte against them or try to stop them from having equal rights you are in fact a bigot.

3.) two things that have NOTHING to do with equal rights and illegal discrimination

4.) 3 answers your question

5.) which factually did not happen, the owners rights are intact

What rights? When did cake become a right?
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

I would think they would be required to serve the gay couple but they would not be required to make the cake any differently thus it would still have a bride and groom on the top of it. Just like they don't use black bride and grooms for black wedding cakes.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

You are at the nub of the problem.

It is my feeling that the Supreme Court, if it ever gets that far, would find in favor of the baker.

LOL....now THAT is hilarious. There isn't a chance in hell that the SCOTUS would find a Constitutional or "Natural" or "In born" right to discriminate. Let me repeat...not a chance in hell. But you can keep wishing for it to be otherwise.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

What rights? When did cake become a right?

When they opened their doors to the public. They don't have a right to refuse service to people just because they think they are "icky".
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

I honestly don't know. I think that a private business should be able to reserve the right to refuse customers. It is privately owner right?

It doesn't mean the owner isn't a bigoted ass and is in the wrong. And yes I am a souther white conservative Christian who disagrees with the bakery owner. But I don't know if I like the idea of the government saying, "you can only refuse who we say you can refuse."

I agree with whoever said this is a "hollow victory." It condemns our rights a little more, even though it does benefit a certain group in society.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

I would think they would be required to serve the gay couple but they would not be required to make the cake any differently thus it would still have a bride and groom on the top of it. Just like they don't use black bride and grooms for black wedding cakes.


1. Various wedding cake "toppers" have been available for a long, long time. Ethnic couples do not have to have "white" toppers on their wedding cakes.


2. Who in the hell would order a black wedding cake. Weddings are supposed to be festive not depressing. A black cake at a funeral? OK, I can understand that but unless you are having a Zombie themed wedding (don't laugh, watch the SyFy episode for Naked Vegas), a black cake makes no sense.



>>>>
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

I honestly don't know. I think that a private business should be able to reserve the right to refuse customers. It is privately owner right?

It doesn't mean the owner isn't a bigoted ass and is in the wrong. And yes I am a souther white conservative Christian who disagrees with the bakery owner. But I don't know if I like the idea of the government saying, "you can only refuse who we say you can refuse."

I agree with whoever said this is a "hollow victory." It condemns our rights a little more, even though it does benefit a certain group in society.

It doesn't "Codemn" our rights at all. There is no "natural" or Constitutional right to engage in discrimination. Period.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

It doesn't "Codemn" our rights at all. There is no "natural" or Constitutional right to engage in discrimination. Period.

Of course there is a right to discriminate. People do it all the time, most of all liberals. They discriminate against conservatives, against Christians and other religious people and so on. Against anyone they don't agree with, actually. Actors in Hollywood often talk about being discriminated against if they are politically conservative.

Certain groups, though, have these special protections. Call them exceptions to the rule. Group rights have come to trump individual rights, and nothing could be more un-American than that. It just depends on which groups have the political clout.

During the Dark Ages when absolute monarchy was the rule even a cat could gaze upon a king, but these days one cannot even speak ill of certain groups regardless how justified.
 
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