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Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647]

Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Ikari said:
Those are not granted by government. In fact when government encroaches too grievously upon them, the People are justified in revolt. That cannot happen if they are granted by government. And by mere fact you claim rights are granted by government demonstrates that you do not understand the fundamental concept of rights. You're looking for the word "privilege". You do not believe in rights, you believe in government granted privilege.
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but if the government is supposedly elected by the vote of the people, does that somehow imply that it is the people infringing on the rights of the people??
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Unitedwestand13 said:
but if the government is supposedly elected by the vote of the people, does that somehow imply that it is the people infringing on the rights of the people??
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No, because it's a representative Republic built upon law and restriction of government force, not a direct democracy. So the government's actions themselves are to be limited by the rights of the Individual regardless of whim of the majority.

All government will trend towards tyranny if left unsupervised.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
And many atheists, agnostics, Muslims and Hindus believed a lot of different things as well. What is your point?


It is about civil rights on both sides of the counter, which is just the point. Blacks and women are off topic.
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You asked for support, so I provided it. Then nevermind, I made my point.

Blacks and women fought for their civil rights. There are many parallels in the actions that pushed those movements forward.
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Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Ikari said:
No, because it's a representative Republic built upon law and restriction of government force, not a direct democracy. So the government's actions themselves are to be limited by the rights of the Individual regardless of whim of the majority.

All government will trend towards tyranny if left unsupervised.
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and in a representative republic, we vote in the representatives. one can argue that the government is only fullfilling the interests of the people it represents.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Ikari said:
No, because it's a representative Republic built upon law and restriction of government force, not a direct democracy. So the government's actions themselves are to be limited by the rights of the Individual regardless of whim of the majority.

All government will trend towards tyranny if left unsupervised.
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Which is why issues like this should be settled by the people rather than getting the government involved.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
This is not about racism.
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Nope, it's about civil rights. That's been pointed out for many pages now, as have the parallels in the ways that people fight for their civil rights. I know that you already know this, since you posted about being outraged that people were comparing the black's struggles and civil rights movement to gays doing the same.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Lursa said:
You asked for support, so I provided it. Then nevermind, I made my point.

Blacks and women fought for their civil rights. There are many parallels in the actions that pushed those movements forward.
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If you can't debate the issue without involving Blacks and women then you can't have much of an argument.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Lursa said:
Nope, it's about civil rights. That's been pointed out for many pages now, as have the parallels in the ways that people fight for their civil rights. I know that you already know this, since you posted about being outraged that people were comparing the black's struggles and civil rights movement to gays doing the same.
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It s about a shopkeeper's rights and the rights of a Gay couple who want to order a wedding cake. Obviously there is going to be an intrusion on the rights of someone.

This can be easily resolved by the community and whether they want to purchase their goods from a baker who refuses to sell to Gays. My guess is that people would stop shopping there and the bakery would soon be out of business. It would be the bakers choice as to which he valued more. Ergo, we have to have more faith in our fellow man and the marketplace.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Unitedwestand13 said:
and in a representative republic, we vote in the representatives. one can argue that the government is only fullfilling the interests of the people it represents.
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The government can try as much as it can, but in a restricted system it is prevented from acting completely along the lines of the majority and must abide the rights of the minority. That's a Republic. You're thinking of a Direct Democracy, which is nothing more than mob rule.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
It s about a shopkeeper's rights and the rights of a Gay couple who want to order a wedding cake. Obviously there is going to be an intrusion on the rights of someone.

This can be easily resolved by the community and whether they want to purchase their goods from a baker who refuses to sell to Gays. My guess is that people would stop shopping there and the bakery would soon be out of business. It would be the bakers choice as to which he valued more. Ergo, we have to have more faith in our fellow man and the marketplace.
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the couple were paying for the bakers service, what reason did the baker have to deny the couple a cake even though they were willing to pay for it.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
Which is why issues like this should be settled by the people rather than getting the government involved.
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I agree. No one has right to another man's property or labor. So forcing government against it is use of government force against free exercise of rights. What should happen in these instances isn't that the government steps in to intercede. It's that those so offended should protest, boycott, raise awareness, and practice intelligent consumerism to elicit changes in local business.

No government force is needed.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
If you can't debate the issue without involving Blacks and women then you can't have much of an argument.
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Are you denying that this is a civil rights issue for a protected class in Colorado?
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Lursa said:
Of course I wasnt. Rosa Park's act was not the only one to move the black civil rights cause forward...it was made up from thousands of people raising awareness, participating in civil disobedience, bringing law suits, submitting legislation, redrawing boundaries.

It is just another group, legitimately IMO, fighting for their civil rights. It's not 'just about a wedding cake,' you cant really believe that, can you?
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It is just a wedding cake and why would you believe any different?

Please tell me where there is institutional discrimination against gays in the US.

This is in no way comparable to the civil right fight.

Gays are not fighting for civil rights.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Lursa said:
Nope, it's about civil rights. That's been pointed out for many pages now, as have the parallels in the ways that people fight for their civil rights. I know that you already know this, since you posted about being outraged that people were comparing the black's struggles and civil rights movement to gays doing the same.
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Just because it has been pointed out by people with an agenda doesn't make it right.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

vesper said:
Let's get something perfectly clear. Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. Being a state of mind, what one person believes is bigotry another may not. It is not illegal for a person to be bigoted toward certain groups. You have that right under the 1st amendment. However, you cannot threaten people or condone violence. You are just as bigoted toward the religious views of others as you claim them to be against gays. You state these religious people have the right to their beliefs but you are refusing them the right to practice them.
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Not at all....but the laws of this country are clear....you cannot use your religion as a shield to promote your bigotry. They have every right in the world to practice their beliefs, but if they choose to open a business, they have to comply with the laws of this great country. Sorry.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Lursa said:
Are you denying that this is a civil rights issue for a protected class in Colorado?
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It's not really civil rights as much as it is related to natural rights; life, liberty, and property. No one really has right to a cake made by another. But the person who owns that cake certainly has right to keep or sell it as they deem fit.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
It s about a shopkeeper's rights and the rights of a Gay couple who want to order a wedding cake. Obviously there is going to be an intrusion on the rights of someone.

This can be easily resolved by the community and whether they want to purchase their goods from a baker who refuses to sell to Gays. My guess is that people would stop shopping there and the bakery would soon be out of business. It would be the bakers choice as to which he valued more. Ergo, we have to have more faith in our fellow man and the marketplace.
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Since you choose not to recognize that this same treatment would be unacceptable and illegal for women and blacks in CO, then there's no point in my responding further. Even if you choose not to recognize gays as deserving of the same civil rights as other Americans, the state of CO does...and that is what the judge's ruling is based on.

So you dont even have an argument at this point. Carry on.....
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Grant said:
It s about a shopkeeper's rights and the rights of a Gay couple who want to order a wedding cake. Obviously there is going to be an intrusion on the rights of someone.

This can be easily resolved by the community and whether they want to purchase their goods from a baker who refuses to sell to Gays. My guess is that people would stop shopping there and the bakery would soon be out of business. It would be the bakers choice as to which he valued more. Ergo, we have to have more faith in our fellow man and the marketplace.
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gays are an extremely small part of the overall population.

Why would people stop shopping there because of this?
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Unitedwestand13 said:
the couple were paying for the bakers service, what reason did the baker have to deny the couple a cake even though they were willing to pay for it.
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That argument doesn't wash because that would indicate that the shopkeeper would have to sell to anybody that came through the door.

Shopkeepers refuse service to people all the time.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Unitedwestand13 said:
the couple were paying for the bakers service, what reason did the baker have to deny the couple a cake even though they were willing to pay for it.
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The information is in the OP.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

I'm sorry but are the gays requiring the baker to put two grooms on the cake?
Equating it to civil rights, they didn't requiring the baker to put a black groom and bride on the cake they still use white ones for black customers and that isn't considered discrimination.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Mason66 said:
gays are an extremely small part of the overall population.

Why would people stop shopping there because of this?
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Do you feel that only Gays support Gay rights?
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Mason66 said:
It is just a wedding cake and why would you believe any different?

Please tell me where there is institutional discrimination against gays in the US.

This is in no way comparable to the civil right fight.

Gays are not fighting for civil rights.
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The position of discrimination and the clear parallels with other civil rights movements has been well-supported here in the thread. No need for me to repeat them. You just claimed the same thing for the third time with no different support for your argument...just "it's not the same!" And yet the state of CO does recognize sexual orientation as a protected class. So much for your declaration. You are of course, welcome to your opinion on it, as everyone is.

Lursa said:
"Oh she could have just moved a few steps further and taken her seat at the back of the bus. They were all going to the same place, she'd still get there. But no, she had to make a big fuss!" /sarcasm
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Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Mason66 said:
That argument doesn't wash because that would indicate that the shopkeeper would have to sell to anybody that came through the door.

Shopkeepers refuse service to people all the time.
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and do the people who are refused service have the right to know whether or not the reason for being denied service was justifiable.
 
Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

Henrin said:
What does any of that have to do with government? You do realize you are explaining social acceptance right? We don't need laws to accomplish such goals.
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You know Henrin, the old Blue Laws fell into that category. Where people who did not recognize Sunday as a day of rest were forced to close down their business anyway. The Jewish shop owner ended up losing two days of business as he/she closed Friday evening at the beginning of his Sabbath and by all rights should have been allowed to open on Sunday morning for business, but there were those who forced onto others what they saw to be socially acceptable. For the life of me, I will never understand why people can not be tolerant of individuals while they enjoy the same freedoms. My word, we now have what amounts to thought police. If you don't think in a political correct way you are a bigot!
 
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