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Thread: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647]

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    How would they be breaking any laws by not offering wedding cakes to the public? They wouldn't! And if they want to cater to private organizations the service of wedding cakes, that isn't against the law either. You state they need to play by the same rules? Well if they aren't going to offer wedding cakes to the public anymore, how are they not following the rules? And at the same time they do not violate their moral conscience. As authoritarian, liberal fascism is rising in this country, I wonder how long it will be before we start seeing ministers, priests, rabbis arrested for hate speech for teaching the traditional teachings in their religious texts that claims homosexuality is a sin.
    "Liberal fascism" from someone who sees morality as treating some people as lesser beings for being who they are. My irony-meter just exploded
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    "Liberal fascism" from someone who sees morality as treating some people as lesser beings for being who they are. My irony-meter just exploded
    DING DING DING DING


    that logic doesnt not compute at all

    it bascially translates into " my morals make me better than you and you a lesser, so the law shouldnt treat you like me cause im better"
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Oh the Constitution, yes, First Amendment and all that jazz. Well if you don't support the religious rights of others to say no to a wedding cake because it violates their moral conscience, then what makes you think the rights for the ministers, priests, and rabbis whose teachings are at the heart of the moral consciences of many, will remain protected?
    I think you completely miss the point. You're conflating discrimination and free speech. A business which operates publicly is required to abide by discrimination laws which clearly state that nobody can be denied service based solely on gender, race, or sexual orientation. This is law. The reason the judge ruled this way is because the state law is clear and there is extensive precedent. It's not like some extreme liberal judge just said "what the heck, I like gays! Let's give those bakers hell!"

    On the other hand, religious freedom and the freedom of speech are both extremely well protected in the United States. An example for each: Scientology is considered a religion and it is allowed to operate even though it's obviously a money hungry cult. Other countries aren't so generous to them. And the Westboro Baptist Church continues to go around the country saying things that nobody likes and yet the only thing the government has done to stop them is say they have to picket a little further away from funerals than they previously had been. Free speech law hasn't really changed at all in hundreds of years.

    Discrimination isn't speech, it's bigotry. Allowing businesses to discriminate makes people less free, not more. There's a reason the Civil Rights Act was passed, and it wasn't because business owners were too free, it was because minorities were treated as subhuman and thus they had limited freedom. It shocks me how many people want to go backward thinking it's forward.
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    I think you completely miss the point. You're conflating discrimination and free speech. A business which operates publicly is required to abide by discrimination laws which clearly state that nobody can be denied service based solely on gender, race, or sexual orientation. This is law. The reason the judge ruled this way is because the state law is clear and there is extensive precedent. It's not like some extreme liberal judge just said "what the heck, I like gays! Let's give those bakers hell!"

    On the other hand, religious freedom and the freedom of speech are both extremely well protected in the United States. An example for each: Scientology is considered a religion and it is allowed to operate even though it's obviously a money hungry cult. Other countries aren't so generous to them. And the Westboro Baptist Church continues to go around the country saying things that nobody likes and yet the only thing the government has done to stop them is say they have to picket a little further away from funerals than they previously had been. Free speech law hasn't really changed at all in hundreds of years.

    Discrimination isn't speech, it's bigotry. Allowing businesses to discriminate makes people less free, not more. There's a reason the Civil Rights Act was passed, and it wasn't because business owners were too free, it was because minorities were treated as subhuman and thus they had limited freedom. It shocks me how many people want to go backward thinking it's forward.
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I will never understand this human rights argument. I know the argument well from school, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense to me. I am student of philosophy and have read hundreds of books on it, and more than I should have on property and it's history, but I can't figure out how this argument makes sense. All types of property, be that your body, your house, your business, or even your land work on the same principle. Just as you have sole claim to control access to your body, you also have sole claim to control access to your house, your business, or your land. No one can say to you that you must invite someone else into your body, your house, your business or your land and no one can act on them without violating your right to property.

    The people you speak of that can be discriminated against never had a just claim to be on the property or to service for that matter, so what rights are we really talking about here? If people have control over access to their property then they must in turn have the power to discriminate against who they chose when dealing with the use of it.

    If people however used the resources open to them to get the word out about places that discriminate then these businesses would not find it in their interest and the problem you speak of would be minimal at best. These businesses I highly doubt would ever grow to be anything more than a small town business with a small base of consumers.
    The law have given people who are discriminated against have been given protection under the law and that gives them claim to the property or service. The law also forbids discrimination and that too gives people the right to be protected from bigots.

    And it is not good enough for waiting for businesses to change because it they find discriminating is "not find it in their interest". Economy is not the way to change bigoted attitudes of businesses, for that a law has been made and businesses who do not comply with that law have to suffer the legal consequence for their misdeeds.
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    We already covered this, and you dropped it.






    Yes she did...in the back. But she fought for the right to 'the cake of her choice.' So that all blacks could have the cake of their choice, instead of having fewer choices or more inconvenience in getting their 'cakes.'
    This is ridiculous comparing Rosa Parks to this couple.

    You should be embarrassed to have done it.

    I hope you were being sarcastic.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The bigotry lies in forcing someone to go against their beliefs via their private business to provide you with a service for something they believe is wrong.

    This goes beyond gay "rights" and gets into bullying through the courts.
    exactly-private businesses should have the right to serve whom they want.

    if they discriminate against good customers, the market will punish them

    this is the kind of intrusion that is not proper



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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    "Liberal fascism" from someone who sees morality as treating some people as lesser beings for being who they are. My irony-meter just exploded
    No one is being treated as less than a full person. Now if gay people were being treated like 3/5 of a person as Black slaves once were, then you might have a point but that isn't the case. At times there are conflicts between us in our view of what is moral. The question that should be asked is it moral to force another by law to do something that is against their own conscience? The answer should be NO! As marriage continues to be redefined who knows what it will look like in twenty years. Already there are groups of people in this country that don't see it morally wrong for incest relationships and want to know why there are laws on the books to forbid it. There are others who do not find it morally wrong to engage in polygamy and want to know why there are laws that forbid them in such relationships. It isn't a far leap before some judge somewhere will rule incest relations and polygamy legal. It is happening all over the world. Not if but when that happens, and a father and daughter wanting to get married, and the baker refuses to bake them a cake because he finds their relationship immoral, then the baker could be hauled into court for saying no. It is coming for those business owners who believe marriage to be between a man and a women will no longer offer their services to the public. The wedding planners, the photographers, the bakers, caterers will solely work with private organizations that share their same belief system.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The moment anyone starts talking of lynching Gays, you let me know, okay?
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    This is ridiculous comparing Rosa Parks to this couple.

    You should be embarrassed to have done it.

    I hope you were being sarcastic.
    How is it ridiculous? Both are examples of people standing up to bigotry.
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