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Thread: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647]

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So at what percentage of the businesses denying services to X group should the government take action? For example, should the government take action when it's 10% of businesses? Or 30%? Or 50% +1? Who sets these arbitrary standards for government action? It's not unrealistic at all. Many businesses have historically denied service to minorities (blacks, whites, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Asians, Mexicans etc.) To the point where these occurrences have actually become part of the oral history of these groups.
    It should be situation dependent. No set number should be set by some all powerful authority.
    Yes, some ethnic groups have a history of being denied the SAME service as others. But not every single business in the area they live in DENIED them that. For instance, the example be set forth in this thread over and over is the Jim Crow south. Sure, blacks weren't given the SAME service as whites but they were not DENIED it universally throughout the towns they lived in. That's the scenario you laid out and it's just not realistic.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So at what percentage of the businesses denying services to X group should the government take action? For example, should the government take action when it's 10% of businesses? Or 30%? Or 50% +1? Who sets these arbitrary standards for government action? It's not unrealistic at all. Many businesses have historically denied service to minorities (blacks, whites, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Asians, Mexicans etc.) To the point where these occurrences have actually become part of the oral history of these groups.
    Considering that no group has been starved, because of discrmination, it's a moot point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    That is what we define as a "moral majority". When there is disagreement on a particular interpretation of scripture or the times demand a reevaluation of traditional interpretations, it eventually falls to the majority to determine the moral stance. Genocide of Native Americans, slavery, segregation, restricting women's rights, etc. have all been issues that people used the Bible to support but which the moral majority eventually decided were immoral. The legitimacy of same sex relationships is the most recent and drastic shift in the moral majority. Of course, I am not saying that the majority actually determines right or wrong because that would be a fallacy, but rather that the demographics of the moral majority shape the attitudes that eventually form policy. Gay rights have advanced in the United States because of Christianity, not in spite of it.
    As I stated to others, the difference in this case is that all of the other instances you mention of the Bible being cited as justification for action had no direct scripture to back them up. Nowhere does it say that Native Americans should be eliminated, that slavery is ok (remember slavery in the Old Testament isn't the slavery we think of), that we should segregate blacks and whites, that women shouldn't be allowed to vote. The Bible does say, however, that homosexuality is a sin. Any Bible scholar could shoot down every single argument for the first few things you mentioned. However, no Bible scholar can say that homosexuality is not prohibited as according to the Bible. It is stated numerous times in both testaments.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    It should be situation dependent. No set number should be set by some all powerful authority.
    Yes, some ethnic groups have a history of being denied the SAME service as others. But not every single business in the area they live in DENIED them that. For instance, the example be set forth in this thread over and over is the Jim Crow south. Sure, blacks weren't given the SAME service as whites but they were not DENIED it universally throughout the towns they lived in. That's the scenario you laid out and it's just not realistic.
    So what you're saying is that a massive denial of services is acceptable as long as it's not all the services? Fair enough. Is it okay to sit certain groups at the back of the bus, because that still gives them seats somewhere on the bus? If yes. Would you have no objection to this treatment being given to Christians? Okay. Skip the bus argument. Would you have no objection to a quota of whites (say 10%) at school as long as they are given a place within that school?
    Last edited by Hatuey; 12-07-13 at 01:14 PM.
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    As I stated to others, the difference in this case is that all of the other instances you mention of the Bible being cited as justification for action had no direct scripture to back them up.
    They certainly did. Go look it up. People have been quoting the Bible to support their views on those very issues. They still do. Here is an example of a rebuttal.

    Interracial Marriage | Segregationists Are Ignorant Bigots, Not Christians

    And here is an article on how slave owners used the Bible to justify slavery.

    How the Bible was used to justify slavery, abolitionism – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

    And it isn't hard to see how the Bible was used to limit women's rights like the right to vote just by looking at many of the commonly used verses.

    What the Bible says about women's rights

    If you need more than that, then just go look up what was said by anti suffragists.

    There are already many, many Christians who argue there is no direct scripture that speaks about the legitimacy of same sex relationships and many others who go so far as to argue that Jesus affirmed a same sex couple in the story of the Roman centurion. It is not unforeseeable that someday people will view your attempts to interpret scripture as supporting your condemnation of homosexuality as the same as the historical examples of people trying to use it to justify limiting women's rights and supporting slavery and segregation.

    That is how scripture has always worked. Attitudes change and with them so do the interpretations, to the point that it becomes inconceivable to people that the Bible was ever directly quoted to justify certain actions. It is not hard to argue that the alleged Biblical condemnations of homosexual behavior need to be read in context of their times and are in reference to rape, exploitation, and sex outside of marriage. The latter of those is negated by same sex marriage.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 12-07-13 at 01:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So what you're saying is that a massive denial of services is acceptable as long as it's not all the services? Fair enough. Is it okay to sit certain groups at the back of the bus, because that still gives them seats somewhere on the bus? If yes. Would you have no objection to this treatment being given to Christians? Okay. Skip the bus argument. Would you have no objection to a quota of whites (say 10%) at school as long as they are given a place within that school?
    There's massive paranoia involved to think that massive denial of services is even a reality. That's fear mongering.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    As I stated to others, the difference in this case is that all of the other instances you mention of the Bible being cited as justification for action had no direct scripture to back them up. Nowhere does it say that Native Americans should be eliminated, that slavery is ok (remember slavery in the Old Testament isn't the slavery we think of), that we should segregate blacks and whites, that women shouldn't be allowed to vote. The Bible does say, however, that homosexuality is a sin. Any Bible scholar could shoot down every single argument for the first few things you mentioned. However, no Bible scholar can say that homosexuality is not prohibited as according to the Bible. It is stated numerous times in both testaments.
    The same sections of the bible say that it is an "abomination" to eat shellfish and wear clothing made of two different fibers. This is why our Constitution is not determined by biblical interpretations.
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Homosexuals are not a protected class under Federal Law:

    Protected class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Colorado has a state law that prohibits discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation.

    In my opinion, (what do I know?) not wanting to supply a wedding cake to a homosexual couple getting married is not discrimination based on sexual orientation. *shrug* It's a discrimination against gay marriage. I think there's a fine line here that could easily be challenged.


    If a gay couple came into my bakery and began picking their noses -- and I asked them to leave -- am I discriminating against them because they're gay? Or because they're picking their noses?



    If you want to hire some lawyers and go to court, get after it.

    Judging from the outcome of recent court cases I believe that you would be wasting your time and your money.




    "Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Homosexuals are not a protected class under Federal Law:

    Protected class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Colorado has a state law that prohibits discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation.

    In my opinion, (what do I know?) not wanting to supply a wedding cake to a homosexual couple getting married is not discrimination based on sexual orientation. *shrug* It's a discrimination against gay marriage. I think there's a fine line here that could easily be challenged.

    If a gay couple came into my bakery and began picking their noses -- and I asked them to leave -- am I discriminating against them because they're gay? Or because they're picking their noses?
    Let's treat it as an interracial couple since Colorado law acts as if sexual orientation and race are protected classes.

    If an interracial couple were married and were denied a wedding cake, would it be discrimination on the basis of race or interracial marriage? Would it even matter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I disagree, this certainly does not go beyond gay rights. The owners are not being bullied by the court, they have been judged to have broken the law of the land by refusing these gay men service. There is no "right to discriminate" but there is a right to get service without being discriminated for something as basic as a food item.
    No, business owners are bullied by the government and made into involuntary servants.

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