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Thread: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647]

  1. #1521
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, I did say private.

    But OK, so if the Bakery instead had membership and only members would be serviced, then game on?

    Legally speaking it probably wouldn't fly since it is an obvious attempt at not having a real "private club" but more a means of circumventing the law.

    Here is a piece that details some of the considerations as to whether something is truley a "private club" (legally speaking) or not -->> http://www.cmaa.org/uploadedFiles/PC...une02legal.pdf

    1. Is "club" truly selective in it's membership and are such criteria enforced.

    2. Are membership rules not structured to simply evade other non-discrimination laws.

    3. Does the organization advertize for general/random membership or for the delivery of goods/services to non-members.

    4. Size can be a consideration.

    5. Who controls the organization, is it truly controlled by the club members through an elective process or is it controlled by an individual "owner".

    6. Who controls the funds of the organization, are they controlled by club members through member selection process or are funds controlled by an individual "owner".

    7. Is the "club" operated for profit of an individual "owner" or is it operated for the benefit of the members.



    For profit businesses trying to evade the law by claiming they are a "private club" probably doesn't work very well.


    >>>>
    Last edited by WorldWatcher; 12-11-13 at 11:46 AM.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Legally speaking it probably wouldn't fly since it is an obvious attempt at not having a real "private club" but more a means of circumventing the law.

    Here is a piece that details some of the considerations as to whether something is truley a "private club" (legally speaking) or not -->> http://www.cmaa.org/uploadedFiles/PC...une02legal.pdf

    1. Is membership truly selective in it's membership and are such criteria enforced.

    2. Are membership rules not structured to simply evade other non-discrimination laws.

    3. Does the organization advertize for general/random membership for for the delivery of goods/services.

    4. Size can be a consideration.

    5. Who controls the organization, is it truly controlled by the club members or is it controlled by an individual "owner".

    6. Who controls the funds of the organization through member selection process or are funds controlled by an individual "owner".

    7. Is the "club" operated for profit of an individual "owner" or is it operated for the benefit of the members.



    For profit businesses trying to evade the law, probably doesn't work very well.


    >>>>
    Country clubs are for profit though, yes? So there can't be a bakery called Resurrection Loaf or Jesus has Risen that had strict membership regulations that are staunchly enforced? If not, why can other businesses or private clubs discriminate?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    So out of curiosity, do you think it should be legal for a shop to not sell their merchandise to a customer because they are black?
    There was no merchandise in this case. The two Gay men were asking the baker to create merchandise, and he objected. The two Gay men insisted he had to make it anyway and took him to court.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) already answered this in post 1503 and you already acknowledged the lie in your previous post before that
    2.) i never apologize for posting facts, pointing out lies and destroying failed posts

    do you have ANYTHING ON TOPIC or are you gonna continue trying to discuss me?
    do you have any facts that support your failed posts? any?
    No, you didn't. All I'm asking is where is this lie you are ferring to. Simply repeating that I lied again and again does not prove your case.

    Of course I really don't care at all what you say because there are too many interesting adults I can debate with here but I do enjoy your denials and squirming. Your main response to any post is calling other posters liars, and of course you can never demonstrate this to be true. Carry on!

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Country clubs are for profit though, yes? So there can't be a bakery called Resurrection Loaf or Jesus has Risen that had strict membership regulations that are staunchly enforced? If not, why can other businesses or private clubs discriminate?
    What private clubs don't allow black people?
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Country clubs are for profit though, yes?
    Actually , Country clubs are for profit though - No.

    If you were to research it most true "country clubs" are organized under the provisions of IRS Code 501 as "non-profit". They have membership requirements, they do not operate "for profit" (which doesn't mean they don't have or handle large assets or cash), they are not mananged by an "owner" for that owners profit - they have elected Boards of Directors by the membership, their funds are not controlled for the profit of an owner - they are managed by finanical representatives selected by the Board and through membership.

    There are many "country clubs" though incorporated under general for profit provisions (there was one near where I grew up). They were owned and operated by a family. Anyone could walkup pay green fees and play. You could buy a "membership" which allowed you unlimited rounds of golf and the ability to reserve Tee Times and the attached restruaunt was open to the public. As such they would have not qualified as a "private club" for Public Accommodation purposes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So there can't be a bakery called Resurrection Loaf or Jesus has Risen that had strict membership regulations that are staunchly enforced? If not, why can other businesses or private clubs discriminate?
    You are asking what the law should be, I'm discussion the law as it is. Personally I support the repeal of Public Accommodation laws in general as applied to private entities, Public Accommodation laws should only apply to government entities. But that is a different discussion.

    The elected Representatives of the Legislatures and the Congress have passed such laws and they have been upheld through state judicial review up to and include State Supreme Courts as a valid function of State governments to regulate commerce within their States under the 10th Amendment and Federal Public Accommodation laws have been upheld by the SCOTUS.

    Just say'n that a for profit bakery owned and operated for the profit of the owners isn't likely to succeed trying to claim "private club" status under the legal definitions and applications of "private club". They could try, and some have, but the only people that normally end up happy with the results are the lawyers for the individual trying to get special privileges to evade discrimination laws.

    And as noted in the link I provided, private clubs created for the purpose of evading anti-discrimination laws will not normally be recognized as exempt from the law. Take the BSA for example - truly a non-profit organization (even though it is large), organized and run by it's members, managed through an elected Board of Directors - and recognized as a "private club" if you will and not subject to anti-discrimination laws (SCOTUS case). They can keep out Atheists and gays all they want.



    >>>>
    Last edited by WorldWatcher; 12-11-13 at 01:17 PM.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Are you anti discrimination folks okay with a gym only open to women?

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    Are you anti discrimination folks okay with a gym only open to women?
    "But that is for their mental and physical safety."
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, you didn't. All I'm asking is where is this lie you are ferring to. Simply repeating that I lied again and again does not prove your case.
    It's what he does. He has accused me (and many others) of "lying" too.

    The funny thing was that when someone else indicated he was calling me a liar, he claimed he didn't. As if he truly didn't realize that a liar is just someone that says (or posts) lies. It's quite surreal.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    Are you anti discrimination folks okay with a gym only open to women?
    Personally I am not.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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