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Thread: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647]

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    In general I agree but I also believe in anti-discrimination legislation....because it is the right thing to do. And it has worked, not perfectly, but has made a difference that has an overall positive affect on society. I dont say that about many laws that impose on the choices of others.

    I believe that because when something is *the right thing to do*, it is wrong to ignore it or deny it, no matter how inconvenient. And denying the rights of blacks and women and gays and any other protected class based on their status alone is to me, very wrong.

    Edit: IMO the fact that many in this thread cannot even see that this is an issue of discriminating against a group of people when compared against those previous civil rights battles is evidence that those earlier battles succeeded...because acceptance in society has become so commonplace. Just IMO of course.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Um you are not very educated on the subject. Many people, including 'good Christians' thought it was indeed an abomination to treat blacks the same as whites. (And again, some still do )

    How old are you? Do you have any memories at all of the civil rights newcasts during the 60s? The racist rhetoric..."on the news" was an embarrassment to human beings in general IMO. And I was just a child.
    OK... now we have to resort in insult and insolence. There goes the adult discussion.

    So, apparently you are not very well educated on the Bible or you would get what I am talking about. Yes, there are many (uneducated in the Bible) that use it to support their warped views of the world. I understand that, but this argument is not about that. Its about having a world view based upon the Bible rather than a worldview that you try to justify by the Bible.

    That said, I dare you to find a substantive biblical defense for bigotry towards blacks. While you will find no references to God or his prophets declaring the black man an abomination, you can rather easily find such references about homosexual behavior. Now, I could appreciate various interpretations of this; I certainly respect the interpretation that the owner of the Masterpiece Cake (which, by the way is about 200 yards from my office) had on this....

    In this, I am not personally making any moral judgments about gays; nor would I do the same thing as this gentlemen. For the record, I have openly gay friends, clients and employees. This is not my personal worldview. However, as a strong Christian, I absolutely understand (and support) this guy's convictions.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-10-13 at 10:00 PM.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    What is near-sighted (I would say short-sighted) is that neither of you seems to realize that blacks, for example, had to fight the same way, do the same things, to achieve their civil rights. As did women.

    And people considered what they did as annoying and valueless and selfish as you do. However....*history* will be the judge.
    Thank you for pointing out my grammar error, I went back and changed it.
    But as far as the rest of your post and comparing this to Blacks and the discrimination they endured is bogus.
    Did the baker have a shingle or sign in the window that stated "NO GAYS ALLOWED"?
    Or did he have two separate bathrooms one marked Straight people and the other Gay People?
    Did he call them fags, queers or any other derogatory name?
    Did he deny them all services/goods from his bakery?

    The answer to all the above would be a big NO!
    Blacks were forbidden to enter some establishments and treated less than second class citizens. The baker sold his goods to everyone. He specialized in wedding cakes, but he did other types of all occasion cakes that he would be glad to offer his services. The one thing his moral convictions did not allow him to participate in was to create a cake for a gay couple. His religious beliefs are that marriage is a sacrament between a man and a woman, holy matrimony. And because of those convictions he is hauled into court and painted as some bigot equal to a KKK member. Unbelievable!
    But according to the legislation I discovered today, HR 3133, it looks like there is relief on the way for those of moral convictions, where they will find protection under the law.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    So you have a right to someone elses business?
    I have covered that in-depth in many posts. What I believe takes *precedence* is anti-discrimination laws.

    I realize you disagree. So be it. If you want my reasoning, feel free to read back in the thread. (But I wont hold my breath)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    They are not at all equivalent, even though many want to make them out to be. Unlike the issue at hand, you would find no support for being black being an "abomination". Being black is not considered a moral issue. The Bible is reasonably explicit about homosexual acts.. (though, it make no mention of homosexual marriage, which was not an issue 1800 to 3500 years ago)... Now, many have interpreted the Bible inclusions in a variety of ways, including self serving ways. One of the mainstream interpretations, however, is that homosexuality and, by extension, homosexual marriage is morally wrong.

    My point, so I am clear, is I believe the shop owner has a very defensible position. I believe the courts should have respected his moral convictions here. Again, we have an issue where civil law encroaches on moral law. (God's law).
    you really need to read up on history, your statements are factually wrong about religion being used to view minorities as lessers, it also applies to women too.

    are you just claiming that YOUR personally dont see the relation because you feel their arguments of religion and woman cant be justified and were stupid to you? but you feel it can be justified against sexual orientation.

    i dont understand how you separate them at all, when the reality is they are the same please explain

    also moral convictions are meaningless when they break the law and infring on legal/civil/equal rights
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Um you are not very educated on the subject. Many people, including 'good Christians' thought it was indeed an abomination to treat blacks the same as whites. (And again, some still do )

    How old are you? Do you have any memories at all of the civil rights newcasts during the 60s? The racist rhetoric..."on the news" was an embarrassment to human beings in general IMO. And I was just a child.
    this is what i was guessing that maybe age was a factor
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    In general I agree but I also believe in anti-discrimination legislation....because it is the right thing to do. And it has worked, not perfectly, but has made a difference that has an overall positive affect on society. I dont say that about many laws that impose on the choices of others.

    I believe that because when something is *the right thing to do*, it is wrong to ignore it or deny it, no matter how inconvenient. And denying the rights of blacks and women and gays and any other protected class based on their status alone is to me, very wrong.

    Edit: IMO the fact that many in this thread cannot even see that this is an issue of discriminating against a group of people when compared against those previous civil rights battles is evidence that those earlier battles succeeded...because acceptance in society has become so commonplace. Just IMO of course.
    id agree its actually baffling
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I have covered that in-depth in many posts. What I believe takes *precedence* is anti-discrimination laws.

    I realize you disagree. So be it. If you want my reasoning, feel free to read back in the thread. (But I wont hold my breath)
    Out of curiosity - your view on Affirmative Action?

    I just wanted to gauge your opinion on discrimination laws as well as anti-discrimination laws.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:123]

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Thank you for pointing out my grammar error, I went back and changed it.
    But as far as the rest of your post and comparing this to Blacks and the discrimination they endured is bogus.
    Did the baker have a shingle or sign in the window that stated "NO GAYS ALLOWED"?
    Or did he have two separate bathrooms one marked Straight people and the other Gay People?
    Did he call them fags, queers or any other derogatory name?
    Did he deny them all services/goods from his bakery?

    The answer to all the above would be a big NO!
    Blacks were forbidden to enter some establishments and treated less than second class citizens. The baker sold his goods to everyone. He specialized in wedding cakes, but he did other types of all occasion cakes that he would be glad to offer his services. The one thing his moral convictions did not allow him to participate in was to create a cake for a gay couple. His religious beliefs are that marriage is a sacrament between a man and a woman, holy matrimony. And because of those convictions he is hauled into court and painted as some bigot equal to a KKK member. Unbelievable!
    But according to the legislation I discovered today, HR 3133, it looks like there is relief on the way for those of moral convictions, where they will find protection under the law.
    Nope. Blacks were allowed in the same theaters, restaurants, etc, except they had to sit in different (less choice) areas. So they were indeed served, in the same establishment...just not **equally**. (And how many bakeries even have public bathrooms?)

    Somehow, you still dont see that by denying them a service that was offered to all others, they were treating them like 2nd class citizens. I doubt you ever will.

    The legal repercussions for the bakery owner were minor. I cant help public reaction. It seems like an over-reaction to me but that is not the gay couple's or the court's fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    ... but they asked him to perform FOR a gay wedding.

    No they didn't. Wedding cakes are not part of the wedding, by the time the wedding cake is involved the wedding has already occured.


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