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Thread: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647]

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Public transportation and private business are 2 different things. Please avoid strawman arguments.
    There are many similar examples of blacks getting the same treatment in restaurants.

    "Strawman avoided"

    Besides, it's not a strawman in the example of showing how people have to do many things, even small things, in order to advance the greater good of achieving their civil rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Different issue. If he is in the business of performing abortions, he cannot say that I will perform the service for whites, but not blacks. THAT is more akin to the situation that we are talking about.
    Your argument would be like walking into a bakery and demanding that they provide you with a 20 pound salmon. They would have a right in that situation to say...uh....we are a bakery...we don't sell fish.
    Understand the distinction?
    Actually, I don't think you understand the issue... its not a black v white discrimination; it was an offense to the shop owners moral sensibilities, similar to abortion.

    Now, I certainly appreciate the civil law aspect to this. It is, in fact, a civil law conflict with moral law. What is somewhat reprehensible are posters that do not understand this. It is nothing at all like discrimination based upon race, color, creed, sex or national origin. It is a discrimination based upon a criteria that mainstream religions find morally wrong.

    This was not a simple sale of goods. It was a matter of specific artistic performance; they asked the baker to apply his artistic skills to create something to celebrate something he found abhorrent. Its not that he found this abhorrent because of some sort of unsubstantiated personal bigotry, but because of a moral conviction based upon the Bible, a book a significant group of American's believe is the moral law (and many believe trumps civil law).

    The closest controversy we have to this is abortion. The only thing wrong with my abortion analogy, however, is that abortion doctors chose to be in the profession. That said, there are OB/GYN's that will not perform abortions under any circumstance based upon moral conviction.

    I can appreciate the civil side of this argument. The intellectually honest need to appreciate the moral side of this as well. It is an interesting case.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-10-13 at 09:29 PM.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    No one is asking the baker to perform a gay wedding
    ... but they asked him to perform FOR a gay wedding.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    1.)It was filed on discrimination, I never said anything counter.
    2.)Please try to refrain from pedantic arguments which add nothing and are nothing more than strawman.
    3.) My point is that cake is not a right
    4.) and if you are discriminated against for a cake it's not the same as discrimination that actually involves rights.
    5.) Cake is not a right.
    1.) yep filed and based on discrimination which in fact makes it not about cake. Please stop posting lies you posted it was based on cake and discrimination was secondary both proven wrong.
    2.) another deflection and yet your statement was and is still factually wrong, only straw man posted around here was yours and facts and multiple posters proved that.
    3.) correct and nobody ever said it was, this is why this strawman continues to be a complete failure
    4.) they factually were not discriminated against for cake they were discriminated against for thier sexual orientation. This is why your statement about cake is a complete false and why cake is meaningless.
    5.) correct please post another failed straw man that is meaningless to the facts.

    Facts defeat your post again.
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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It was filed on discrimination, I never said anything counter. Please try to refrain from pedantic arguments which add nothing and are nothing more than strawman. My point is that cake is not a right and if you are discriminated against for a cake it's not the same as discrimination that actually involves rights. Cake is not a right.
    A piece of pie in a restaurant is not cake either. Pie isnt a right, is it? But it is a parallel claim of discrimination.

    Denying Jews entrance to the beach on a private lake isnt a piece of cake either. Swimming isnt a right, is it? But it is a parallel claim of discrimination.

    Denying a woman a job welding in a private company isnt a piece of cake either. Welding isnt a right. But it is a parallel claim of discrimination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    So we should allow them to be the moral police for one-third of a billion Americans? Yeah, and the right wing wants a police state...It's bad enough that we tell the world what to do and think. Hell if I want them to do it to their own.
    Government regulation is a reaction to the unwillingness of individuals and businesses to do the right thing. The government shouldn't sit idly by while people suffer just because libertarians think we should twiddle our thumbs and wait for human nature to change.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Actually, I don't think you understand the issue... its not a black v white discrimination; it was an offense to the shop owners moral sensibilities, similar to abortion.

    .
    Are you claiming that serving blacks or being made to associate with blacks in public was not morally offensive to people? Because it certainly was and (disgustingly IMO) still is for some people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    Government regulation is a reaction to the unwillingness of individuals and businesses to do the right thing. The government shouldn't sit idly by while people suffer just because libertarians think we should twiddle our thumbs and wait for human nature to change.
    You don't inspire change by force. You're no better than prostelyzing Christians that you hate.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Are you claiming that serving blacks or being made to associate with blacks in public was not morally offensive to people? Because it certainly was and (disgustingly IMO) still is for some people.
    They are not at all equivalent, even though many want to make them out to be. Unlike the issue at hand, you would find no support for being black being an "abomination". Being black is not considered a moral issue. The Bible is reasonably explicit about homosexual acts.. (though, it make no mention of homosexual marriage, which was not an issue 1800 to 3500 years ago)... Now, many have interpreted the Bible inclusions in a variety of ways, including self serving ways. One of the mainstream interpretations, however, is that homosexuality and, by extension, homosexual marriage is morally wrong.

    My point, so I am clear, is I believe the shop owner has a very defensible position. I believe the courts should have respected his moral convictions here. Again, we have an issue where civil law encroaches on moral law. (God's law).
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-10-13 at 09:41 PM.

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    Re: Colorado Judge: Bakery Owner discriminated against gay couple [W:113:123:292:647

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    You don't inspire change by force. You're no better than prostelyzing Christians that you hate.
    I agree with that a good deal however do you think that the civil rights movements for blacks and women....rife with legal acrimony and civil disobedience....were ineffective? Certainly it was uncomfortable for dissenters during that time but just IMO, it probably advanced their causes by reducing the time of real change from decades to years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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