Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

APACHERAT said:

I was well aware of who Nelson Mandela was by 1971. Most Americans had no knowledge who Mandela was until the mid 1980's and all they knew about him was that he was sitting in a prison in some country they couldn't even find on a map.

1962 Mandela (on the left) illegally left South Africa for military training in Morocco not Algeria as the revisionist claim by the ALF which was aligned with the Soviet Union and was armed by the Soviet Union.

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You should embrace a man who fought against a corrupt government. Ins't that what you think about our government?

MMC said:

So how many days of honoring is he worth?

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This sort of becomes the crux of the problem for many Americans; nearly all other countries and peoples have recognised him but he isn't as important as the forthcoming superbowl or who's doing what with who in Hollywood.

The American govt for 40 years called him a terrorist and ignored his people's plight and I really don't expect his statesmanship to be recognised in the US in the same way as it is in other parts of the world. They certainly didn't recognise the evils of apartheid.

Infinite Chaos said:

This sort of becomes the crux of the problem for many Americans; nearly all other countries and peoples have recognised him but he isn't as important as the forthcoming superbowl or who's doing what with who in Hollywood.

The American govt for 40 years called him a terrorist and ignored his people's plight and I really don't expect his statesmanship to be recognised in the US in the same way as it is in other parts of the world. They certainly didn't recognise the evils of apartheid.

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Mornin IC :2wave: You can't really say there were none here that didn't recognize such.....moreover. Has any come up with.....how much honoring must be done?

clownboy said:

Two times that I can find in the history of the American flag. And it is a hollow and meaningless gesture in this case because Mandela had ZERO connection to America, made NO contribution to America. And no, again, those TWO foreign folk so honored weren't honored for their significant global impact but their impact upon America.

Heck why not give him employee of the month awards from all American businesses while we're at it?

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But, but ...I just heard Obama say he and Michelle were beneficiaries of Mandela's struggle.

Was he lying a g a i n?

WCH said:

But, but ...I just heard Obama say he and Michelle were beneficiaries of Mandela's struggle.

Was he lying a g a i n?

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Hi WCH,

I watched the whole speech, i thought he did a good job overall. One thing that stood out for me was how much America is still clearly respected amongst other Countries Leaders. (I know people worry about that sometimes, i've seen posts here where people feel that the US may not be as respected as they were in the past). Personally i don't believe that to be true.

I actually got a little emotional at the end when Obama got a standing ovation from so many of the other Countries Leaders. Not because i'm a blind Obama fan because i'm not, he's not perfect. It was great to see the US get the acknowledgement it deserves. They do a lot of good in the world. If i was an American i would be very proud of the acknowledgement your President received. That's a reflection on your Country as a whole, they weren't just applauding Obama they were applauding each and every one of you.

WCH said:

But, but ...I just heard Obama say he and Michelle were beneficiaries of Mandela's struggle.

Was he lying a g a i n?

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Didn't Obama say he would die for something this morning? What was that again? :lol:

Serenity said:

Hi WCH,

I watched the whole speech, i thought he did a good job overall. One thing that stood out for me was how much America is still clearly respected amongst other Countries Leaders. (I know people worry about that sometimes, i've seen posts here where people feel that the US may not be as respected as they were in the past). Personally i don't believe that to be true.

I actually got a little emotional at the end when Obama got a standing ovation from so many of the other Countries Leaders. Not because i'm a blind Obama fan because i'm not, he's not perfect. It was great to see the US get the acknowledgement it deserves. They do a lot of good in the world. If i was an American i would be very proud of the acknowledgement your President received. That's a reflection on your Country as a whole, they weren't just applauding Obama they were applauding each and every one of you.

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All I heard was the same rhetoric from him we've heard all along. Yet, conditions here in this country do not reflect his words. Many of his positions are destroying the lives of many here.

I'm glad other countries still look to America as a beacon of democracy but, I do not respect this president in the least.... no matter how much his voice reverberates over the load speakers.

MMC said:

Didn't Obama say he would die for something this morning? What was that again? :lol:

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I didn't catch that one. [I seriously doubt he meant it]

WCH said:

I didn't catch that one. [I seriously doubt he meant it]

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Well WCH......now how did we manage to miss this Opportunity. Here we have 90 World leaders with most of them representing and standing for Democracy all in one place. I expected that #1 would fail in his required duties......I will expect you to find him. You Know, what to do.

SPECTRE Shall Not be taken for granted anymore. Send out the Cobra Commandos. In the meantime #2 has his report on the NATO Project.

In my opinion, the American flag at the federal order level should only be for very notable Americans. Politicizing it and for foreign leaders trivializes it. LBJ started this practice - and it's a bad one.

WCH said:

Yahoo! News

President Barack Obama on Thursday ordered flags to fly at half-staff at the White House and public buildings, with the US in mourning over the death of "close friend" and anti-apartheid hero Nelson Mandela.

Obama's proclamation, which also extended to the White House, US foreign missions, military posts, naval stations and military vessels, was valid through sunset on Monday.

"Today, the United States has lost a close friend, South Africa has lost an incomparable liberator, and the world has lost an inspiration for freedom, justice, and human dignity -- Nelson Mandela is no longer with us, he belongs to the ages," he said in the document.

"Through his fierce dignity and unbending will to sacrifice his own freedom for the freedom of others, he transformed South Africa -- and moved the entire world.


For a Communist? Antithesis to Freedom and Liberty?

And nothing for Maggie Thatcher...nothing

I truly want to vomit.

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And what positive thing did Thatcher do? I wasn't aware she was a great inspiration the world over. I was not aware she was jailed for dozens of years because she opposed racism and oppression. No, Thatcher was more someone who did the oppressing.

She might have been a good prime minister in the UK according to some but that is where here accomplishments end.

MMC said:

Mornin IC :2wave: You can't really say there were none here that didn't recognize such.....moreover. Has any come up with.....how much honoring must be done?

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Hi MMC, not all Americans are insular, some will be aware of the struggles in South Africa from 1948 onwards. I just doubt very many on this forum actually are or have a very limited world view and still see things defined by old cold war rhetoric.

Besides, look at this "world news" forum and see how many domestic American news stories dominate. Very few of us outside America know or care who Trayvon Martin was or what some Walmart policy / storekeeper shop policy in mid-town America is: and that;s not because of a hatred of America but just that there is "real" world news out there in the real world.

Peter King said:

And what positive thing did Thatcher do? I wasn't aware she was a great inspiration the world over. I was not aware she was jailed for dozens of years because she opposed racism and oppression. No, Thatcher was more someone who did the oppressing.

She might have been a good prime minister in the UK according to some but that is where here accomplishments end.

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I don't want to derail the thread but Thatcher was integral to the work with Reagan leading to the toppling of the Soviet Bloc, she spoke up for Gorbachev and introduced him to the West. As for oppressing - she didn't. I will admit she made some errors in domestic policy but she didn't oppress anyone.

MMC said:

Well WCH......now how did we manage to miss this Opportunity. Here we have 90 World leaders with most of them representing and standing for Democracy all in one place. I expected that #1 would fail in his required duties......I will expect you to find him. You Know, what to do.

SPECTRE Shall Not be taken for granted anymore. Send out the Cobra Commandos. In the meantime #2 has his report on the NATO Project.

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Infinite Chaos said:

I don't want to derail the thread but Thatcher was integral to the work with Reagan leading to the toppling of the Soviet Bloc, she spoke up for Gorbachev and introduced him to the West. As for oppressing - she didn't. I will admit she made some errors in domestic policy but she didn't oppress anyone.

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Thank you

Infinite Chaos said:

I don't want to derail the thread but Thatcher was integral to the work with Reagan leading to the toppling of the Soviet Bloc, she spoke up for Gorbachev and introduced him to the West. As for oppressing - she didn't. I will admit she made some errors in domestic policy but she didn't oppress anyone.

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There are millions of people in the UK who think very differently, they felt very oppressed.

Peter King said:

There are millions of people in the UK who think very differently, they felt very oppressed.

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We're really derailing the thread here... the people who resented Thatcher's actions were primarily the Soviet Union funded unions that dragged this country through the s**t in the 70's and who had their noses put out by their failure to bring Thatcher down.

Nobody is ever going to convince certain members of my country that we were financially turned around from "sick man of europe" to one of the top 5 economies in Europe - despite all the statistics showing this. In 76, we went begging to the IMF for financial handouts, 3 years later before Thatcher took power, some unions blocked the cleaning of our streets and the burials of the dead.

How is that oppression? As for what she did with Ronald Reagan in bringing an end to the Soviet Bloc - millions of Poles, Czechs and Slovaks: heck, even Ukrainians and Russians have infinitely better lives because of Thatcher and Reagan.

j-mac said:

From what the Sheriff says, he is flying the flags at half mast to honor locals that died on our state...

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Did he really say that, or did he say that they died in the state or for the state?

shrubnose said:

Did he really say that, or did he say that they died in the state or for the state?

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You're asking me to speak for him. I won't do that, but instead refer you to the article I posted.

Infinite Chaos said:

We're really derailing the thread here... the people who resented Thatcher's actions were primarily the Soviet Union funded unions that dragged this country through the s**t in the 70's and who had their noses put out by their failure to bring Thatcher down.

Nobody is ever going to convince certain members of my country that we were financially turned around from "sick man of europe" to one of the top 5 economies in Europe - despite all the statistics showing this. In 76, we went begging to the IMF for financial handouts, 3 years later before Thatcher took power, some unions blocked the cleaning of our streets and the burials of the dead.

How is that oppression? As for what she did with Ronald Reagan in bringing an end to the Soviet Bloc - millions of Poles, Czechs and Slovaks: heck, even Ukrainians and Russians have infinitely better lives because of Thatcher and Reagan.

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Thatcher barely won the first election, lucked out with the victory over the Falklands to win the second election and was kicked out of power by her own party in her third rule of the country.

Of all the Northern European EU countries the UK has the highest poverty numbers, the UK has twice as many youthful unemployed (20.2%) compared to for example Germany and the Netherlands (8% in Germany and 9.7% in the Netherlands) and in a lot of other aspects the UK lags behind the rest of the wealthier EU countries. Sure, the income is higher than in most other industrialized northern EU countries but the cost of living is higher than in most Norther EU countries, as is the case with retirement age and vacation days.

As for her international politics, that too is a mixed bag. She won the battle for the Falklands, was very opposed to the unification of Germany and some say her relation with Reagan was not that terrific.

But even more than that, the reason that Mandela respects so much admiration is that he suffered for decades in jail, unified his country, ended apartheid and changed South Africa from a white rule country to a democratic nation. Mandela's story is inspirational around the world, that is just a fact of life.

Maybe the flags should have been put at half staff in honor of Thatcher too, that can be debated but I understand why the half-staff honor was given for Mandela, it was to honor the remarkable life and role he played in the liberation of an entire country from oppression.

So during the ritual of honoring Mandela Obama is hitting on the Danish Prime Minister. Obama's old lady has to get up and move our great leader over one chair so she can sit between them! Obama during the tribute is "selfing" pictures of him and the knockout blond Danish Prime Minister. What a disgrace Obama is.

Peter King said:

Thatcher barely won the first election

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I'm going to stop you right there, you need to do some homework and then come back. The Conservatives won 339 seats compared to Labour's 269 so calling Thatcher's first victory "barely won" is laughable.

Homework for you.

Why not start a thread on Thatcher too rather than derailing a Mandela thread?

Infinite Chaos said:

I'm going to stop you right there, you need to do some homework and then come back. The Conservatives won 339 seats compared to Labour's 269 so calling Thatcher's first victory "barely won" is laughable.

Homework for you.

Why not start a thread on Thatcher too rather than derailing a Mandela thread?

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I don't need homework, in 1979 Thatcher won the election by having a majority of only 43 MP's. Her party won 43.9% of those who turned up to vote (76% turnout). The only reason why her majorities in the 2 subsequent elections where much higher is because of the insane electoral system in the UK. In 1983 she got less votes, 42.4% of the voters that turned up to vote but her majority was 144. If you of the 30 million votes the majority voted for other parties but again.

Add to that the also insane electoral principle that the ruling party can decide when to have a general election (a maximum of 5 years before the next general election). Margaret Thatcher was doing quite poorly in polling but when she won the Falkland war her popularity rose immensely and she chose that moment to have a general election ensuring her victory.

In all of her governments the majority of the population voted for other parties but due to the winner takes all system in the UK the minority rules (usually).

And I am not derailing this thread, the person who complained that it was unfair for the flags to be flown half mast now and not for Thatcher did that.

All I said that Mandela deserved the honor for her personal story and his historic influence on his country (and continent to some extend), Thatcher might have deserved the same honor but that would have been purely out of the respect for her office and the historic friendship between the UK and the USA and not because of Thatcher's achievements and personal story (at least that is my opinion).

Peter King said:

I don't need homework, in 1979 Thatcher won the election by having a majority of only 43 MP's. Her party won 43.9% of those who turned up to vote (76% turnout). The only reason why her majorities in the 2 subsequent elections where much higher is because of the insane electoral system in the UK. In 1983 she got less votes, 42.4% of the voters that turned up to vote but her majority was 144. If you of the 30 million votes the majority voted for other parties but again.

Add to that the also insane electoral principle that the ruling party can decide when to have a general election (a maximum of 5 years before the next general election). Margaret Thatcher was doing quite poorly in polling but when she won the Falkland war her popularity rose immensely and she chose that moment to have a general election ensuring her victory.

In all of her governments the majority of the population voted for other parties but due to the winner takes all system in the UK the minority rules (usually).

And I am not derailing this thread, the person who complained that it was unfair for the flags to be flown half mast now and not for Thatcher did that.

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Well funny how the way we run elections only ever comes into question when the other side wins. If Labour had won in 79, only you and the Soviet Union would have celebrated.

Shame you didn't do your homework.

Peter King said:

All I said that Mandela deserved the honor for her personal story and his historic influence on his country (and continent to some extend), Thatcher might have deserved the same honor but that would have been purely out of the respect for her office and the historic friendship between the UK and the USA and not because of Thatcher's achievements and personal story (at least that is my opinion).

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No idea what you're getting at I'm afraid.

Infinite Chaos said:

Well funny how the way we run elections only ever comes into question when the other side wins. If Labour had won in 79, only you and the Soviet Union would have celebrated.

Shame you didn't do your homework.

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I did do my homework but I just do not agree with you on your Thatcher love fest, I think she was lucky that the labour party in that time were a bunch of extreme leftists who lost touch with the UK voter and that the conservatives just won because of the strange UK voting system.

Infinite Chaos said:

No idea what you're getting at I'm afraid.

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My point was that Mandela was an inspirational individual who stood for forgiveness and including all in a new South Africa, he was also personally inspiring to many around the world. Thatcher was a cold (hence the Iron Lady) ruler who did not stand for forgiveness and including everyone in the UK, she also was not that personally inspiring.

My point is that if the flags had been flown at half mast for Thatcher it would not have been done because she was respected and revered by millions upon millions for her person but out of respect for the historical relation with the UK. And that is what is different with Mandela, he is still respected and revered by many millions.

All that being said, it might have been wise to also flow at half mast for Thatcher as well, if only in Washington DC.

Peter King said:

I did do my homework but---

Thatcher was a cold (hence the Iron Lady) ruler who did not stand for forgiveness and including everyone in the UK, she also was not that personally inspiring --

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Well if I forgave your miscounting a 49 seat majority as "only just winning" then your "Iron lady" sentence proves you didn't research how and why she got the name.

Try again -the link I gave you really will help you.