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Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

Sherman123 said:
I'm well aware of the history of South Africa and the wider region in the context of the Cold War. I'm not sure what point you are trying to get across. Once again there is a massive distinction between the decision (for which I will pass no retrospective censure) to prioritize fighting regional Communist powers over ending Apartheid in South Africa; and castigating Mandela and his affiliates for trying to topple what was in effect a fascistic, racist, dictatorship.
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The ANC was allied with the Soviet Union, they were on the communist side of the Cold War.

Now years later during the 1990's after the Cold War and after apartheid, Nelson Mandela supposedly said, we weren't really communist, we were just using the Soviet Union.

May be Mandela and the ANC should have made that clear during the Cold War ? I think it would have made a big diffrence.
 
APACHERAT said:
The ANC was allied with the Soviet Union, they were on the communist side of the Cold War.

Now years later during the 1990's after the Cold War and after apartheid, Nelson Mandela supposedly said, we weren't really communist, we were just using the Soviet Union.

May be Mandela and the ANC should have made that clear during the Cold War ? I think it would have made a big diffrence.
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Would have made no difference to US policy. The ANC were initially inspired by Ghandi's peaceful protest movement and the US had a major problem with its black population brewing.

It was politic for the US to turn a blind eye to segregation policy of the 1948 - 1960's in South Africa because that was exactly what was happening in the US at the same time. Even when the South African police killed over 50 unarmed protesters at Sharpeville there was no condemnation (although the US did vote against South Africa at the UN)

The ANC simply used or built relations with any force / movement or country that would support the cause of freedom for Africans and that did not include America.
 
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WCH said:
Just admit he was a Commie and get over it. You are way too invested in trying to proving he wasn't.
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LOL, that's an admission you can't actually prove the man was a communist. I have no problem if you dislike Mandela or even the cause of freedom for black Africans in South Africa - just be honest about your dislike please.

Nobody is going to argue with you if you simply dislike Mandela or if you have personal reasons but we will argue if you give out false reasons such as "he was a communist."
 
Infinite Chaos said:
LOL, that's an admission you can't actually prove the man was a communist. I have no problem if you dislike Mandela or even the cause of freedom for black Africans in South Africa - just be honest about your dislike please.

Nobody is going to argue with you if you simply dislike Mandela or if you have personal reasons but we will argue if you give out false reasons such as "he was a communist."
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That line from WCH is like a cop telling you "I'm going to give you one chance to tell us the truth."

That means he's got nothing.

Even if, at one point in his life, he was a communist ... SO WHAT? Is being a communist an unpardonable crime? Are all communists evil, irredeemable souls?

Mikhail Gorbachev was a Communist, and he did as much, if not more, to end the Cold War than Ronald Reagan did.

Joe McCarthy died 66 years ago, but his spirit lives on in some of the DP commentariat who can't come to grips with the fact that the Cold War has been over for almost 25 years.
 
APACHERAT said:
Did you open the PDF file and read the entire article ? It kinda explains the correlation of the apartheid government and the Cold War.

Don't you people remember all of the Soviet and Cuban backed civil wars going on in Africa during the 70's and 80's ?

Remember mercenaries and Soldier of Fortune magazine along with Easyrider magazine ?

There was more going on than disco and cocaine back then.

How many of the uniformed didn't know that South Africa had nuclear weapons ?
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South Africa remains the only nuclear state to have voluntarily given up its nuclear weapons.

You're going to have to do better than this, AR.
 
APACHERAT said:
The ANC was allied with the Soviet Union, they were on the communist side of the Cold War.

Now years later during the 1990's after the Cold War and after apartheid, Nelson Mandela supposedly said, we weren't really communist, we were just using the Soviet Union.

May be Mandela and the ANC should have made that clear during the Cold War ? I think it would have made a big diffrence.
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Just curious who were we allied with in S Africa at the time?
 
Kobie said:
That line from WCH is like a cop telling you "I'm going to give you one chance to tell us the truth."

That means he's got nothing --
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I've known he had nothing since my spending quite a few years (growing up) in the independent nations of Southern Africa as a child in the 60's and 70's.
Mugabe's politics were always clear, and we also knew where Mandela stood. The two were and are night and day apart.
 
A short exerpt from Mandela's opening trial statement.

" ...As far as the Communist Party is concerned, and if I understand its policy correctly, it stands for the establishment of a State based on the principles of Marxism. Although it is prepared to work for the Freedom Charter, as a short term solution to the problems created by white supremacy, it regards the Freedom Charter as the beginning, and not the end, of its programme.

The ANC, unlike the Communist Party, admitted Africans only as members. Its chief goal was, and is, for the African people to win unity and full political rights. The Communist Party`s main aim, on the other hand, was to remove the capitalists and to replace them with a working-class government. The Communist Party sought to emphasize class distinctions whilst the ANC seeks to harmonize them. This is a vital distinction.

It is true that there has often been close co-operation between the ANC and the Communist Party. But co-operation is merely proof of a common goal - in this case the removal of white supremacy - and is not proof of a complete community of interests.

The history of the world is full of similar examples. Perhaps the most striking illustration is to be found in the co-operation between Great Britain, the United States of America, and the Soviet Union in the fight against Hitler. Nobody but Hitler would have dared to suggest that such co-operation turned Churchill or Roosevelt into communists or communist tools, or that Britain and America were working to bring about a communist world... "
 
Manc Skipper said:
A short exerpt from Mandela's opening trial statement.

" ...As far as the Communist Party is concerned, and if I understand its policy correctly, it stands for the establishment of a State based on the principles of Marxism. Although it is prepared to work for the Freedom Charter, as a short term solution to the problems created by white supremacy, it regards the Freedom Charter as the beginning, and not the end, of its programme.

The ANC, unlike the Communist Party, admitted Africans only as members. Its chief goal was, and is, for the African people to win unity and full political rights. The Communist Party`s main aim, on the other hand, was to remove the capitalists and to replace them with a working-class government. The Communist Party sought to emphasize class distinctions whilst the ANC seeks to harmonize them. This is a vital distinction.

It is true that there has often been close co-operation between the ANC and the Communist Party. But co-operation is merely proof of a common goal - in this case the removal of white supremacy - and is not proof of a complete community of interests.

The history of the world is full of similar examples. Perhaps the most striking illustration is to be found in the co-operation between Great Britain, the United States of America, and the Soviet Union in the fight against Hitler. Nobody but Hitler would have dared to suggest that such co-operation turned Churchill or Roosevelt into communists or communist tools, or that Britain and America were working to bring about a communist world... "
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^ And this right here is why the "Mandela was a commie!" argument fails on an almost metaphysical level.

Those who castigate Mandela for any communist connections are historically ignorant and monumentally stupid.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
LOL, that's an admission you can't actually prove the man was a communist. I have no problem if you dislike Mandela or even the cause of freedom for black Africans in South Africa - just be honest about your dislike please.

Nobody is going to argue with you if you simply dislike Mandela or if you have personal reasons but we will argue if you give out false reasons such as "he was a communist."
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I haven't seen anything to prove Mandela wasn't a Commie but, the other half of my premise was giving credit to and honoring Maggie Thatcher for her life's work.

If their ideologies were reversed, you people would be wearing Thatcher t-shirts.
 
WCH said:
the other half of my premise was giving credit to and honoring Maggie Thatcher for her life's work.

If their ideologies were reversed, you people would be wearing Thatcher t-shirts.
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IC has actually always been one of Maggies staunchest supporters here.

Infinite Chaos said:
We're not all ghouls celebrating at the death of one of our finest leaders. Many will mark her funeral on Wednesday next week with sadness and respect for what she did for our country.

R.I.P Iron Lady. At her best, she could see through the failed policies of bringing everyone down to the lowest economic denominator.

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You're welcome.
 
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From my experience the American flag is a at half mast every other day so why not for Mandela?
 
WCH said:
Looks like he was in the closet as president. Kind of like ours. 8)

He quit before the truth came out.
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So, nothing. Thank you for proving my point.
 
APACHERAT said:
It works now.
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I don't know what happened with that link, after I first posted that comment I kept clicking on the link, trying to make sure that it was working and I couldn't get a response, good or bad, I guess that website or this one was busy at the time.
 
Manc Skipper said:
A short exerpt from Mandela's opening trial statement.

" ...As far as the Communist Party is concerned, and if I understand its policy correctly, it stands for the establishment of a State based on the principles of Marxism. Although it is prepared to work for the Freedom Charter, as a short term solution to the problems created by white supremacy, it regards the Freedom Charter as the beginning, and not the end, of its programme.

The ANC, unlike the Communist Party, admitted Africans only as members. Its chief goal was, and is, for the African people to win unity and full political rights. The Communist Party`s main aim, on the other hand, was to remove the capitalists and to replace them with a working-class government. The Communist Party sought to emphasize class distinctions whilst the ANC seeks to harmonize them. This is a vital distinction.

It is true that there has often been close co-operation between the ANC and the Communist Party. But co-operation is merely proof of a common goal - in this case the removal of white supremacy - and is not proof of a complete community of interests.

The history of the world is full of similar examples. Perhaps the most striking illustration is to be found in the co-operation between Great Britain, the United States of America, and the Soviet Union in the fight against Hitler. Nobody but Hitler would have dared to suggest that such co-operation turned Churchill or Roosevelt into communists or communist tools, or that Britain and America were working to bring about a communist world..
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. "
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100% on the money.

Great post, but some people will be calling Nelson Mandela a Communist from now until the end of time, because they don't like the way that things turned out in South Africa.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
The jig? :lol:
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racist.gif


.........................

:lamo
 
Just curious, has anyone touched on the fact that the president is going to Mandela's funeral, but he skipped Maggie's? If so, I apologize for bringing it up.
 
WCH said:
His accomplishment were strictly regional. Not like he helped end the cold war or anything.
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He ended apartheid in South Africa. PPretty big accomplishment
 
Mandela wasn't American, I see no reason why flags should be half mast.

Is there any precedent for this? With a non-American I mean?
 
APACHERAT said:
The ANC was allied with the Soviet Union, they were on the communist side of the Cold War.

Now years later during the 1990's after the Cold War and after apartheid, Nelson Mandela supposedly said, we weren't really communist, we were just using the Soviet Union.

May be Mandela and the ANC should have made that clear during the Cold War ? I think it would have made a big diffrence.
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That Mandela never attempted to govern as a Communist should tell you a great deal about his political motivations. Assistance was sought from those who could help with their resistance movement. If the United States had turned on South Africa we would have become the most powerful ally the ANC could have dreamed of and would have instantly acquired positive relations.
 
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