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Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

Bob Blaylock said:
One can perhaps cut your grandfather some slack, given what he had himself suffered at the hands of the Germans, but it doesn't change the fact that what he did meets every rational definition of robbery, murder and terrorism, and not of legitimate “freedom fighting”. Even in war, there are standards of ethical conduct, and what you describe here does not meet these standards.

If there had been any body interested in pursuing such prosecutions, your grandfather could very legitimately have been tried and convicted as a war criminal.
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I fundamentally disagree. This is the kind of thinking that would have forbidden someone from striking back at a totalitarian regime on the scale of 1984 because security personal were out of reach. There is such a thing as utilitarianism in my book, and the aforementioned examples are some of the best cases arguing in favor of an occasional 'ends justify the means' approach. Why was my grandfather justified in murdering that farmer? Because fighting back against the Nazis was justified by almost any means necessary. Just as our decision to use nuclear weapons on Japan was motivated by a utilitarian objective.
 
For which foreign dignitaries has the American flag been flown at half-mast?
 
Perotista said:
I don't know, it was a long time ago.
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I'm seeing conflicting news accounts. I've seen that Obama ordered the flag lowered to "half mast" for ten days.

And I see this.

>"After the death of Nelson Mandela, President Obama ordered that U.S. flags on government buildings be flown at half-staff until Monday evening — a symbolic gesture of a nation in mourning."<

U.S. Flags Lowered For Mandela, A Rare Honor For Foreign Leaders : The Two-Way : NPR

Also, I'm not in mourning over medela's death.
 
Perotista said:
I am all for flying the flag at half mast for Mandela. He deserves it. Regardless of politics he was a great man and leader. A man of the ages. I respected the man and as far as I am concerned he deserves the honor. As I posted before on another thread, this old crusty retired Master Sergeant is giving him a slow hand salute. RIP.
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How come Maggie Thatcher doesn't deserve a salute?
 
APACHERAT said:
I'm seeing conflicting news accounts. I've seen that Obama ordered the flag lowered to "half mast" for ten days.

And I see this.

>"After the death of Nelson Mandela, President Obama ordered that U.S. flags on government buildings be flown at half-staff until Monday evening — a symbolic gesture of a nation in mourning."<

U.S. Flags Lowered For Mandela, A Rare Honor For Foreign Leaders : The Two-Way : NPR

Also, I'm not in mourning over medela's death.
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It is probably until Monday.
 
WCH said:
How come Maggie Thatcher doesn't deserve a salute?
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If you followed what I had to say on Thatcher I ripped the president pretty hard on this site. She deserved better. The president not attending smacked of petty politics. If he was busy, he should have sent VP Biden to head up the U.S. delegation which if I remember right included Cheney, Shultz and Baker.

It has been protocol since Eisenhower anyway as that is a far back as I can remember is to send the VP to funerals of foreign leaders as the presidents and the countries representative. As for Mandela, I think he deserves the honor he is receiving. I would like to see politics stay out of things like this, but in today's highly charged partisan charged atmosphere I guess that would be asking too much.
 
It takes a special strain of the Conservative Victim Complex to portray any honoring of Mandela to be treated as somehow pissing on Margaret Thatcher's grave.
 
Kobie said:
It takes a special strain of the Conservative Victim Complex to portray any honoring of Mandela to be treated as somehow pissing on Margaret Thatcher's grave.
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As a conservative I sadly agree.
 
Carjosse said:
In Canada we had a former communist as our prime-minster till he retired in 1984 then we had a Progressive Conservative CEO. We forged relations with the communist countries especially Cuba. We see it quite differently here, not to mention we did beat the Soviets in battle albeit on an ice rink.
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Please. Trudeau wrote about Marxism while at Harvard. In any case, to the best of my knowledge, he was a civilized socialist who never tried to justify the totalitarian repressions, never counted homicidal maniacs like Kaddafi among his bosom buddies, and never taped booby-trapped anti-apartheid posters to the walls in Johannesburg (which killed, of course, not any evil perpetrators of the racist regime but black municipal workers).
 
WCH said:
Depite being the leader of one our staunchest allies, look her up.
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Lots of leaders of staunch allies have died without the flag going to half-staff.

WCH said:
She was a hell of a lot more accomplished than the jail bird commie.
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I never realized until the last couple of days how much the right absolutely hated Nelson Mandela.
 
Cyrylek said:
Please. Trudeau wrote about Marxism while at Harvard. In any case, to the best of my knowledge, he was a civilized socialist who never tried to justify the totalitarian repressions, never counted homicidal maniacs like Kaddafi among his bosom buddies, and never taped booby-trapped anti-apartheid posters to the walls in Johannesburg (which killed, of course, not any evil perpetrators of the racist regime but black municipal workers).
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As if Trudeau faced even an infinitely small fraction of what Blacks faced in SA..
 
apdst said:
We beat the Soviets on the ice and we won the war.
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Did you participate in the summit series, I think not.

There is practically an entire chapter in our history textbooks dedicated to the summit series.
 
Carjosse said:
Did you participate in the summit series, I think not.

There is practically an entire chapter in our history textbooks dedicated to the summit series.
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He's talking about the Miracle on Ice, not the Summit Series.
 
Cyrylek said:
Please. Trudeau wrote about Marxism while at Harvard. In any case, to the best of my knowledge, he was a civilized socialist who never tried to justify the totalitarian repressions, never counted homicidal maniacs like Kaddafi among his bosom buddies, and never taped booby-trapped anti-apartheid posters to the walls in Johannesburg (which killed, of course, not any evil perpetrators of the racist regime but black municipal workers).
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He counted Castro as one fo his closet friends and strongly disliked the U.S.. He may have been more of socialist but the point still stands. How do you booby trap posters?
 
Kobie said:
He's talking about the Miracle on Ice, not the Summit Series.
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We beat the Russians in the Olympics numerous times and I'm pointing we had the summit series which is more remarkable than the Miracle on Ice.
 
Carjosse said:
We beat the Russians in the Olympics numerous times and I'm pointing we had the summit series which is more remarkable than the Miracle on Ice.
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I dunno if it's more remarkable. The Miracle on Ice is one of the biggest upsets in sports history.
 
Sherman123 said:
Bob Blaylock said:
One can perhaps cut your grandfather some slack, given what he had himself suffered at the hands of the Germans, but it doesn't change the fact that what he did meets every rational definition of robbery, murder and terrorism, and not of legitimate “freedom fighting”. Even in war, there are standards of ethical conduct, and what you describe here does not meet these standards.

If there had been any body interested in pursuing such prosecutions, your grandfather could very legitimately have been tried and convicted as a war criminal.
Click to expand...

I fundamentally disagree. This is the kind of thinking that would have forbidden someone from striking back at a totalitarian regime on the scale of 1984 because security personal were out of reach. There is such a thing as utilitarianism in my book, and the aforementioned examples are some of the best cases arguing in favor of an occasional 'ends justify the means' approach. Why was my grandfather justified in murdering that farmer? Because fighting back against the Nazis was justified by almost any means necessary. Just as our decision to use nuclear weapons on Japan was motivated by a utilitarian objective.
Click to expand...

If your description of your grandfather's activities is accurate, then he was no freedom fighter at all, but nothing better than a common murderous criminal. I probably misspoke when I referred to him as a terrorist and a war criminal. He may have claimed a political “freedom-fighting” motive for his activities, but in the end, all he was is someone who murdered innocent noncombatants, and stole their property.
 
APACHERAT said:
Scuttlebutt is, Mandela had a portrait of the narcissist, Obama that hung on the wall of his home.

But the face of Jane Fonda can also be found in urinals in many VFW and American Legion post across America and John Kerry's portrait is proudly displayed in a Vietnam War Memorial museum in Hanoi dedicated to those Americans who helped Communist North Vietnam win the war.
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From the article linked in the OP

"America's first black president met Mandela only once, briefly, in 2005, but was inspired to enter politics by the anti-apartheid hero's example."

Yes that made them close friends. Briefly.
 
Kobie said:
I dunno if it's more remarkable. The Miracle on Ice is one of the biggest upsets in sports history.
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The summit series was an eight game series between Canada and Russia the top countries in hockey and was one by Canada by one goal in the last minute. Like IS aid they dedicate an an entire chapter to it in Canadian history classes.
 
Carjosse said:
In Canada we had a former communist as our prime-minster till he retired in 1984 then we had a Progressive Conservative CEO. We forged relations with the communist countries especially Cuba. We see it quite differently here, not to mention we did beat the Soviets in battle albeit on an ice rink.
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Two words for you. Phil Esposito. Nothing else needs to be said.
 
Carjosse said:
The summit series was an eight game series between Canada and Russia the top countries in hockey and was one by Canada by one goal in the last minute. Like IS aid they dedicate an an entire chapter to it in Canadian history classes.
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I know what the Summit Series was.
 
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