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Thread: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Thatcher barely won the first election
    I'm going to stop you right there, you need to do some homework and then come back. The Conservatives won 339 seats compared to Labour's 269 so calling Thatcher's first victory "barely won" is laughable.

    Homework for you.

    Why not start a thread on Thatcher too rather than derailing a Mandela thread?

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I'm going to stop you right there, you need to do some homework and then come back. The Conservatives won 339 seats compared to Labour's 269 so calling Thatcher's first victory "barely won" is laughable.

    Homework for you.

    Why not start a thread on Thatcher too rather than derailing a Mandela thread?
    I don't need homework, in 1979 Thatcher won the election by having a majority of only 43 MP's. Her party won 43.9% of those who turned up to vote (76% turnout). The only reason why her majorities in the 2 subsequent elections where much higher is because of the insane electoral system in the UK. In 1983 she got less votes, 42.4% of the voters that turned up to vote but her majority was 144. If you of the 30 million votes the majority voted for other parties but again.

    Add to that the also insane electoral principle that the ruling party can decide when to have a general election (a maximum of 5 years before the next general election). Margaret Thatcher was doing quite poorly in polling but when she won the Falkland war her popularity rose immensely and she chose that moment to have a general election ensuring her victory.

    In all of her governments the majority of the population voted for other parties but due to the winner takes all system in the UK the minority rules (usually).

    And I am not derailing this thread, the person who complained that it was unfair for the flags to be flown half mast now and not for Thatcher did that.

    All I said that Mandela deserved the honor for her personal story and his historic influence on his country (and continent to some extend), Thatcher might have deserved the same honor but that would have been purely out of the respect for her office and the historic friendship between the UK and the USA and not because of Thatcher's achievements and personal story (at least that is my opinion).
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I don't need homework, in 1979 Thatcher won the election by having a majority of only 43 MP's. Her party won 43.9% of those who turned up to vote (76% turnout). The only reason why her majorities in the 2 subsequent elections where much higher is because of the insane electoral system in the UK. In 1983 she got less votes, 42.4% of the voters that turned up to vote but her majority was 144. If you of the 30 million votes the majority voted for other parties but again.

    Add to that the also insane electoral principle that the ruling party can decide when to have a general election (a maximum of 5 years before the next general election). Margaret Thatcher was doing quite poorly in polling but when she won the Falkland war her popularity rose immensely and she chose that moment to have a general election ensuring her victory.

    In all of her governments the majority of the population voted for other parties but due to the winner takes all system in the UK the minority rules (usually).

    And I am not derailing this thread, the person who complained that it was unfair for the flags to be flown half mast now and not for Thatcher did that.
    Well funny how the way we run elections only ever comes into question when the other side wins. If Labour had won in 79, only you and the Soviet Union would have celebrated.

    Shame you didn't do your homework.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    All I said that Mandela deserved the honor for her personal story and his historic influence on his country (and continent to some extend), Thatcher might have deserved the same honor but that would have been purely out of the respect for her office and the historic friendship between the UK and the USA and not because of Thatcher's achievements and personal story (at least that is my opinion).
    No idea what you're getting at I'm afraid.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Well funny how the way we run elections only ever comes into question when the other side wins. If Labour had won in 79, only you and the Soviet Union would have celebrated.

    Shame you didn't do your homework.
    I did do my homework but I just do not agree with you on your Thatcher love fest, I think she was lucky that the labour party in that time were a bunch of extreme leftists who lost touch with the UK voter and that the conservatives just won because of the strange UK voting system.


    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    No idea what you're getting at I'm afraid.
    My point was that Mandela was an inspirational individual who stood for forgiveness and including all in a new South Africa, he was also personally inspiring to many around the world. Thatcher was a cold (hence the Iron Lady) ruler who did not stand for forgiveness and including everyone in the UK, she also was not that personally inspiring.

    My point is that if the flags had been flown at half mast for Thatcher it would not have been done because she was respected and revered by millions upon millions for her person but out of respect for the historical relation with the UK. And that is what is different with Mandela, he is still respected and revered by many millions.

    All that being said, it might have been wise to also flow at half mast for Thatcher as well, if only in Washington DC.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I did do my homework but---

    Thatcher was a cold (hence the Iron Lady) ruler who did not stand for forgiveness and including everyone in the UK, she also was not that personally inspiring --
    Well if I forgave your miscounting a 49 seat majority as "only just winning" then your "Iron lady" sentence proves you didn't research how and why she got the name.

    Try again -the link I gave you really will help you.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Well if I forgave your miscounting a 49 seat majority as "only just winning" then your "Iron lady" sentence proves you didn't research how and why she got the name.

    Try again -the link I gave you really will help you.
    I did not miscount, the seat numbers mean nothing. If the other 2 parties spilt the vote you can win an absolute majority of much more that that with only 35% of the vote. The only thing that counts here is percentages and raw votes. And in the first election, the UK as said has a funny electoral system.

    Still does not change the issue, Mandela being a person who is loved and respected around the world (in most countries) and Thatcher was sort of respected by her own party in the UK and that is part of the reason the flags go at half mast for Mandela and I think that is logical.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    -- Still does not change the issue --
    Agreed, you were wrong on all counts.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Agreed, you were wrong on all counts.
    No, I am still right. Mandela was an exceptional person who deserved this honor because of the great person that he was, the extraordinary story of his life, the great legacy of his uniting and cleansing role he had as South African president and the personal character of greatness that he radiated.

    Margaret Thatcher may have deserved that honor but that would have been purely on the basis of the friendship between the US and the UK and the respect for the office of the PM and not so much her legacy.

    Personally I may respect Thatcher for breaking the glass ceiling by becoming a female PM but that is where my respect largely ends. I have a much more warm feeling about Mandela. It may have to do with the struggle he fought against Apartheid, the most infamous word of the Dutch language and the most hated Dutch word in the Netherlands and the warm feeling the Dutch people had for Mandela. Thatcher rubber most people the wrong way.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    No, I am still right. Mandela was an exceptional person who deserved this honor because of the great person that he was, the extraordinary story of his life, the great legacy of his uniting and cleansing role he had as South African president and the personal character of greatness that he radiated.

    Margaret Thatcher may have deserved that honor but that would have been purely on the basis of the friendship between the US and the UK and the respect for the office of the PM and not so much her legacy.

    Personally I may respect Thatcher for breaking the glass ceiling by becoming a female PM but that is where my respect largely ends. I have a much more warm feeling about Mandela. It may have to do with the struggle he fought against Apartheid, the most infamous word of the Dutch language and the most hated Dutch word in the Netherlands and the warm feeling the Dutch people had for Mandela. Thatcher rubber most people the wrong way.
    I actually admired both and can see the positives in both leaders, I can understand the horror some Dutch feel about Afrikaaners but that is no reason to minimise Thatcher's legacy.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I actually admired both and can see the positives in both leaders, I can understand the horror some Dutch feel about Afrikaaners but that is no reason to minimise Thatcher's legacy.
    But Thatcher did not have a legacy (positive legacy) as Mandela had. Also, Mandela was likeable and most did not see that in the Iron Lady.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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