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Thread: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Wow, you're really hot for this guy. I don't care for him either way, don't hate him nor do I admire him, pretty much like most Americans I think. But that isn't the issue here, nor am I trying to "minimize his impact", he just didn't have any impact on America or the American people.

    Why do you think he needs all this extra honoring with methods that don't fit his case? Shall we honor him with Brownie troop leader of the year as well? Will that satisfy your need to honor a fellow who has done absolutely nothing for you or any of the rest of us as Americans?

    More appropriate would be the UN flag being flown at half staff.
    Most people are 'hot' for me. Those who are not are in the decisive minority. Why does he need honoring? He doesn't. No one needs to be honored. You honor people because they are worth honoring.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    What does one have to do with another? How are you not doing the same thing he is doing by accusing their "founding fathers?" of genocide?
    No, Canadians continued to kill indigenous Canadians, plus seizing their children and putting them into death camps deliberately exposing the children to diseases.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    I'm not a believer that the end justifies the means. That's a leftist philosophy.

    And I acknowledge that Nelson Mandela as President of South Africa accomplished a lot of good and had many achievements and also some failures. Mandelas achievements are as long as Obama's failures.

    The black middle class in South Africa has significantly increased. But the crime today in South Africa can be traced to the current political party that is in power. The Mandela administration was corrupt but not as corrupt as the current Zuma administration.

    But the facts are, Nelson Mandela had a past and it's been whitewashed and that's why so many young people are ignorant of mandelas past.

    At least Nelson Mandela had a past, Barack Obama seems not to have had a past, just a pass.
    Those who are absolutist consequentalists or deontologists are morally deficient. We find the truth somewhere in the middle. Revolutionaries would have to go much farther than they did in South Africa for me to censure the movement as a whole. Likewise for Jewish Marxists and Socialists (who comprised the majority of the Jewish underground) who murdered and attacked German targets regardless of their military or civil character. Both the black militants of South Africa and the Jewish red cells did whatever they had to do to weaken the power of the enemy that oppressed them.

    As for crime in South Africa certainly some if it can be traced to the corruption of the ANC, but the underlying problems that spawned it almost all stem from Apartheid and the removal of the South African police state. Also no Mandela's past has not been white washed.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    LOL, what would have happened if the ANC just rolled over and gave up fighting for liberation? The American government was never going to put pressure on the apartheid government.

    Are you just hurt that the white minority government handed power over? Is that all this is about?

    Sheesh.

    That's not true.....Reagan tried to come back with that he would apply Sanctions and then Appointed the First Black Ambassador to South Africa. 31 Repubs were against Reagan on the issue of South Africa. McConnell led the way saying the Repubs tried to give Reagan time on to get on Board.

    So don't think our Sanctions didn't have something to do with causing what took place.



    Senate, 78 to 21, Overrides Reagan’s Veto and Imposes Sanctions on South Africa......

    Senate, 78 to 21, Overrides Reagan&#146 - s Veto and Imposes Sanctions on South Africa - NYTimes.com

    Many of the provisions of the law take effect immediately, while others will be gradually introduced over the next few months. For example, the import of iron, steel and agricultural products is banned immediately, while a similar ban on uranium, coal and textiles will take effect in 90 days. The ban on new investments takes effect in 45 days, and the law directs Mr. Reagan to stop all flights within 10 days.

    Mr. Reagan made a major effort in recent days to salvage his veto, and he called a number of Senators personally today, arguing that he would appear weak and ineffective in Iceland if he were rebuffed by the Republican-controlled Senate on a major foreign policy question. Earlier this week, he tried to bolster his cause by promising to impose some economic sanctions on his own, and by appointing the first black Ambassador to South Africa.

    These efforts only gained him seven more votes than the total that opposed the bill in August. All 21 votes to sustain the veto were cast by Republicans, but the key to the outcome today was that 31 Republicans, including many conservative allies of Mr. Reagan, were not persuaded by his arguments.

    A good example was Mitch McConnell, a first-term Republican from Kentucky, who said he was casting his first vote against the President on a foreign policy issue with ''great reluctance.'' But on this question, the lawmaker said: ''I think he is ill-advised. I think he is wrong. We have waited long enough for him to come on board.''......snip~

    Senate, 78 to 21, Overrides Reagan&#146 - s Veto and Imposes Sanctions on South Africa - NYTimes.com

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    No, Canadians continued to kill indigenous Canadians, plus seizing their children and putting them into death camps deliberately exposing the children to diseases.
    Canadian Children Death Camps? You wanna source that, cause that's kind of a while assertion. I'd be interested in your definition of a Death Camp as well, since you very well could assign that definition (if liberally applied) to the reservations Native Americans were forced onto.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    LOL, what would have happened if the ANC just rolled over and gave up fighting for liberation? The American government was never going to put pressure on the apartheid government.

    Are you just hurt that the white minority government handed power over? Is that all this is about?

    Sheesh.
    The British government was already putting pressure on South Africa. Once the light at the end of the tunnel was seen that the end of the Cold War was near, PM Marget Thatcher played a significant role on influencing South Africa's President de Klerk. Apartheid ended when Mandela was still sitting in prison.

    What I have noticed in the past five days not one liberal/progressive has even mentioned President Frederik de Klerk , only non libs. Why is that ? Who actually ended apartheid in South Africa ? It seems that the left in the name of revisionism also whitewashed the past of President de Klerk.

    <" F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk (born March 18, 1936), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa...

    As president, de Klerk committed himself to speeding up the reform process begun by his predecessor and to initiating talks about a new postapartheid constitution with representatives of what were then the country’s four designated racial groups (white, black, Coloured, and Asian [Indian]). Though faced with a strengthened right-wing opposition in Parliament (the Conservative Party), following his famous opening address to Parliament on Feb. 2, 1990, de Klerk quickly moved to release all important political prisoners, including Nelson Mandela, and to lift the ban on the African National Congress (ANC) and the Pan-Africanist Congress of Azania. Thereafter, he frequently met with black leaders, and in 1991 his government passed legislation that repealed racially discriminatory laws affecting residence, education, public amenities, and health care in South Africa. In 1992 he called a referendum in which almost 69 percent of the country’s white voters endorsed his reform policies. That same year de Klerk undertook serious negotiations with Mandela and other black leaders over a proposed new constitution that would enfranchise the black majority and lead to all-race national elections. In the meantime, his government continued to systematically dismantle the legislative basis for the apartheid system.

    Under de Klerk’s leadership, the governing National Party reached agreement with the ANC in the summer of 1993 on a transition to majority rule. De Klerk led his party’s campaign in South Africa’s first all-race elections in April 1994, in which the ANC obtained a majority of seats in the new National Assembly. De Klerk subsequently joined a government of national unity formed by Mandela, taking the post of second deputy president. He resigned as deputy president in 1996 and as head of the National Party in 1997, when he announced his retirement from politics. He established the F.W. de Klerk Foundation in 2000 and the Global Leadership Foundation in 2004..."<

    F.W. de Klerk (president of South Africa) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    That's not true.....Reagan tried to come back with that he would apply Sanctions --
    By Reagan's time everyone was on South Africa's case but that was nearly 40 years into Apartheid...

    Sharpeville, Biko, the destabilisation of black neighbouring countries - the list of atrocities during those 40 years is long and does no credit to any claim by any country that claims to stand for freedom for the oppressed or bringing democracy to others.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    The British government was already putting pressure on South Africa. Once the light at the end of the tunnel was seen that the end of the Cold War was near, PM Marget Thatcher played a significant role on influencing South Africa's President de Klerk. Apartheid ended when Mandela was still sitting in prison.

    What I have noticed in the past five days not one liberal/progressive has even mentioned President Frederik de Klerk , only non libs. Why is that ? Who actually ended apartheid in South Africa ?-
    As a British Thatcher supporter, I think I know a lot more about Thatcher's policy on South Africa and I have already credited F.W. de Klerk and Pik Botha in this or the other thread. Thatcher did nothing I'm afraid to help South Africa. Her eyes were on the Argentines and then Gorbachev's Soviet Union. She obstructed wherever she could.

    Why is it that recognition of Mandela's efforts makes someone "the left" and those who just want to discredit the efforts of the black majority to gain their freedom "the right?"

    Are we so... black and white LOL?

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Most people are 'hot' for me. Those who are not are in the decisive minority. Why does he need honoring? He doesn't. No one needs to be honored. You honor people because they are worth honoring.
    Are we having a language problem? Didn't mention anyone being hot for you. And nothing I said was about the "need" to honor Mandela but more the seeming need to honor him using methods that aren't applicable to him. Again, honor him, but do so with the appropriate and applicable methods.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Most people are 'hot' for me. Those who are not are in the decisive minority. Why does he need honoring? He doesn't. No one needs to be honored. You honor people because they are worth honoring.

    So how many days of honoring is he worth? So he spoke out for Peace.....that which will never exist in the physical universe and hasn't. Does this make him nobler? Does this make him a great leader? No.....it does not. Many came before him......and many will come after him. All saying pretty much the same thing about peace. Did he add anything new to the Construct of Peace? Come up with a fool-proof way to ensure peace? Anything......anything at all that he can be Noted for about Peace?

    Do you actually think that the Worlds leaders.....in a time wherein all this chaos is happening. All this economic helplessness that they are all expounding on. That they need to take time out.....fly to another country to Honor this man. After already honoring him thru Speech and television and flying our flag for him? While giving tribute to him for over 4 days?

    You don't think it is bit to much at all.....huh?

    Nothing exceeds like excess.....huh?

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