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Thread: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    What a strange discussion. When I happen upon a funeral procession, I politely stop the car or stand and face the procession, no matter who is in the casket. How about you?

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I said it before but it bears repeating. The ONLY reason Mandela was associated with communism for a time was during the years of struggle to end apartheid...
    Although, I am not here to denounce your take on it, it would seem that facts have this particular statement wrong....According to Professor Ellis:

    As evidence of Mr Mandela's Communist party membership, Prof Ellis cites minutes from a secret 1982 SACP meeting, discovered in a collection of private papers at the University of Cape Town, in which a veteran former party member, the late John Pule Motshabi, talks about how Mr Mandela was a party member some two decades before.

    In the minutes, Mr Motshabi, is quoted as saying: "There was an accusation that we opposed allowing Nelson [Mandela] and Walter (Sisulu, a fellow activist) into the Family (a code word for the party) ... we were not informed because this was arising after the 1950 campaigns (a series of street protests). The recruitment of the two came after."

    While other SACP members have previously confirmed Mr Mandela's party membership, many of their testimonies were given under duress in police interviews, where they might have sought to implicate him. However, the minutes from the 1982 SACP meeting, said Prof Ellis, offered more reliable proof. "This is written in a closed party meeting so nobody is trying to impress or mislead the public," he said.

    Although Mr Mandela appears to have joined the SACP more for their political connections than their ideas, his membership could have damaged his standing in the West had it been disclosed while he was still fighting to dismantle apartheid.

    Africa was a Cold War proxy battleground until the end of the 1980s, and international support for his cause, which included the Free Nelson Mandela campaign in Britain, drew partly on his image as a compromise figure loyal neither to East nor West.

    "Nelson Mandela's reputation is based both on his ability to overcome personal animosities and to be magnanimous to all South Africans, white and black, and that is what impressed the world," said Prof Ellis, a former Amnesty International researcher who is based at the Free University of Amsterdam. "But what this shows is that like any politician, he was prepared to make opportunistic alliances.

    Nelson Mandela 'proven' to be a member of the Communist Party after decades of denial - Telegraph

    ...The free countries of the world that were founded on the principles of liberty choose to stand in solidarity with brutal subjugation and denial of the rights of citizenship of the majority population by strict iron-fisted enforcement by the minority based on race. He would have preferred to stand with the US, Western Europe, etc. but we were on the side of Apartheid. The only countries offering their support and solidarity were places like Cuba and the Soviets. Then after South Africa gained its freedom, he led South Africa not in not becoming communist government but one based on similar rights and freedoms patterned after the US model.
    This is a regrettable part of history, and one that Reagan himself regretted his veto.

    Ronald Reagan regretted vetoing sanctions against South Africa’s pro-apartheid government, a top official in the late President’s cabinet said Sunday.
    "I'm sure he did regret it, in fact, I'm certain that he did," James Baker III, Reagan’s former Chief of Staff and Treasury Secretary said on CBS’ “Face the Nation” during a wide-ranging discussion about former South African President Nelson Mandela. “It was after all, I think, the only time a veto of his had been overridden in two terms. Certainly, he regretted it."


    Read more: Ronald Reagan regretted vetoing sanctions against pro-apartheid South Africa - NY Daily News
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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Although, I am not here to denounce your take on it, it would seem that facts have this particular statement wrong....According to Professor Ellis:






    This is a regrettable part of history, and one that Reagan himself regretted his veto.
    Sounds llke he was too busy using others and hiding his true self to gain power and influence....not unlike Obama.
    Last edited by WCH; 12-09-13 at 01:23 PM.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Although, I am not here to denounce your take on it, it would seem that facts have this particular statement wrong....According to Professor Ellis:






    This is a regrettable part of history, and one that Reagan himself regretted his veto.
    I'm not for freeze-framing anyone in one of their more regrettable moments. I'm happy Reagan would have done things differently if he had them to do over. However, my thinking on the issue would surround the time Mandela was active in the ANC, which would be prior to his imprisonment and after his release. What was US policy toward South Africa in 1962 and earlier that could have driven him into a marriage of convenience? Then is there any indication Mandela embraced communism 1990 and forward that he truly wanted communism after the US and Great Brittan finally came around to supporting democracy?
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I'm not for freeze-framing anyone in one of their more regrettable moments. I'm happy Reagan would have done things differently if he had them to do over. However, my thinking on the issue would surround the time Mandela was active in the ANC, which would be prior to his imprisonment and after his release. What was US policy toward South Africa in 1962 and earlier that could have driven him into a marriage of convenience? Then is there any indication Mandela embraced communism 1990 and forward that he truly wanted communism after the US and Great Brittan finally came around to supporting democracy?
    I can't get into his head like that...There certainly would be evidence that the communist ties would have to be more than a ruse to gain support, to hold up for decades, however, I also think that 27 years in prison gave him a solidified temperance that allowed him to achieve his goals without the violence he embraced as a younger man. That, and communism was dead, and dying on a global scale.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    From what the Sheriff says, he is flying the flags at half mast to honor locals that died on our state....
    I'm sure that's the only reason. Riddle me this, did the Sheriff fly the flag at half mast when Reagan died?

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Although, I am not here to denounce your take on it, it would seem that facts have this particular statement wrong....According to Professor Ellis:






    This is a regrettable part of history, and one that Reagan himself regretted his veto.
    I find myself regretting I ever voted for Reagan.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Whether that is true or not, he still made no significant contribution to America and thus our flag should not be lowered. Honor him or not all you wish. Hell, give him a Nobel prize. But we are not the world and our flag belongs to Americans.
    We are a world
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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    As a Navy veteran who has performed many Honors Ceremonies, I could tell you you're wrong, but quoting regulations as this poster previous did on page one does the trick so much better.
    Have you even been following the thread? We have only honored two foreign dignitaries in such a way (Churchill and Pope John Paul), both had a significant ties to, significant achievements for our population, our citizenry. It is very largely an American honor that honors Americans. That is how is has always been used. Mandela doesn't meet any bar for that in any stretch of the imagination.

    Not to mention, you ducked and dodged from your original mind reading statement which was wrong altogether.

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    Re: Obama: Flags To Be Flown At Half-Staff In Honor Of Nelson Mandela [W:382]

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I'm sure that's the only reason. Riddle me this, did the Sheriff fly the flag at half mast when Reagan died?
    Don't know...I didn't live here then...I lived in Maryland when Reagan died....But that still doesn't equate to what the Sheriff said...He said he wasn't flying the flag at half mast for Saint Nelson, because he wasn't American....Reagan was, so how does it matter to your equation there?

    I find myself regretting I ever voted for Reagan.
    Why?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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