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South Africa's Nelson Mandela dies in Johannesburg[W102]

You mention Johannesburg but your link conflates that with a general "many innocent people" however one 77 year old was killed at that 1964 bombing. Your estimate of "hundreds" isn't even agreed by the South African police which states that 130 were killed between 1976 and 1986.

You and your source overplay your hand very badly.

As for the word terrorist - the Apartheid government and the American government threw that term out once umKhonto we Sizwe took their first action against government installations which were a direct result of the Sharpeville massacre. Telling that you care more about denigrating Mandela throughout this thread than the government which he opposed and which failed to break him.

As for your earlier challenge to PeteEU about George Washington and the word "terrorist" - the term hadn't been invented yet so your challenge was a strawman nobody could ever face. First record of use of the word "terrorist" was 1796. Washington was born 1732 and died 3 years after the first use of the word terrorist - he was aged 67.

As for what he faced - the causes of the war of independence are many and some ignoble (such as the desire to expand into Indian areas and steal their land) whereas Mandela was fighting for the return of stolen lands and the murder of unarmed civilians.


.

Hundreds killed and wounded not killed. Don't misquote me, it makes you look like you have to lie to make your point.

Washington was not a terrorist by todays meaning of the word, it does not matter that the word didn't exist in his time.

No matter that Mandela's cause was just terrorism is terrorism and killing women and children make him a terrorist.
 
Wrong again. Scroll back and you will find several Mandela worshipers make the comparison. Thank you for the genius thing though. I graciously accept your compliment.

First mention of Gandhi in this thread:

My take is he was a terrorist that the left made into a hero. They turned him from a murderer of innocent civilians into a Gandhi.

That was post TWO.
 
Wrong again. Scroll back and you will find several Mandela worshipers make the comparison. Thank you for the genius thing though. I graciously accept your compliment.

In some aspects, Mandela was better than Gandhi. Gandhi was an almost fanatical Hindu who played a huge role in alienating India's Muslim population. He desired a totally agrarian society whose trademark would be the spinning wheel - a symbol that is present on the Indian flag but if put into usage would have created a mass famine. Not to take anything away from his use of nonviolence, but it was easy for him to be a pacifist when the end of British rule in India was inevitable. He naively applied this same logic to argue that Jews being led to the gas chambers should have resisted nonviolently, and refused to fight the much worse Japanese imperialism that threatened to take over India and that would not have given him the same consideration that the British did.

Both were good and gentle human beings, but Mandela was much more realistic than Gandhi ever was.
 
In some aspects, Mandela was better than Gandhi. Gandhi was an almost fanatical Hindu who played a huge role in alienating India's Muslim population. He desired a totally agrarian society whose trademark would be the spinning wheel - a symbol that is present on the Indian flag but if put into usage would have created a mass famine. Not to take anything away from his use of nonviolence, but it was easy for him to be a pacifist when the end of British rule in India was inevitable. He naively applied this same logic to argue that Jews being led to the gas chambers should have resisted nonviolently, and refused to fight the much worse Japanese imperialism that threatened to take over India and that would not have given him the same consideration that the British did.

Both were good and gentle human beings, but Mandela was much more realistic than Gandhi ever was.

Good and gentle beings do not target women and children.
 
Hundreds killed and wounded not killed. Don't misquote me, it makes you look like you have to lie to make your point.

Washington was not a terrorist by todays meaning of the word, it does not matter that the word didn't exist in his time.

No matter that Mandela's cause was just terrorism is terrorism and killing women and children make him a terrorist.

Washington was leader of the rebellion and this included elements who tarred and feathered civilian stamp agents. Even though as you say, the word terrorism did not exist, these were acts of intimidation and terrorism. Washington was leader in the same way Mandela was leader of a rebellion.
 
Washington was leader of the rebellion and this included elements who tarred and feathered civilian stamp agents. Even though as you say, the word terrorism did not exist, these were acts of intimidation and terrorism. Washington was leader in the same way Mandela was leader of a rebellion.

The Stamp Act was repealed 10 years before the Revolution started.
 
The Stamp Act was repealed 10 years before the Revolution started.

And?

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty..."
 
Washington was leader of the rebellion and this included elements who tarred and feathered civilian stamp agents. Even though as you say, the word terrorism did not exist, these were acts of intimidation and terrorism. Washington was leader in the same way Mandela was leader of a rebellion.

Washington was a military leader whereas Mandela was a terrorist leader. Apples oranges.
 
And?

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty..."

And...Washington wasn't leading a rebellion that tarred and feathered stamp agents.
 
Washington was a military leader whereas Mandela was a terrorist leader. Apples oranges.

They were both leaders, they were both leaders of a rebellion. You can deny everything else but even you cannot deny that black south Africans rebelled and had a leader called Nelson Mandela.
 
They were both leaders, they were both leaders of a rebellion. You can deny everything else but even you cannot deny that black south Africans rebelled and had a leader called Nelson Mandela.

Just don't compare Mandela to Washington, they were worlds apart and you defame a great man in US history when you say there names in the same breath.
 
Just don't compare Mandela to Washington, they were worlds apart and you defame a great man in US history when you say there names in the same breath.

Yeah I agree, Mandela didn't actually kill anyone and he forgave his oppressors. Washington was a slave owner and does not deserve the same recognition.

Mandela's rebellion freed white and black citizens of his country whereas Washington.... didn't. Mandela's rebellion didn't end with the wholesale slaughter and disenfranchisement of Native Americans whereas Washington's... did.

Definitely don't deserve the same pedestal.

We'll leave it at that.
 
Just don't compare Mandela to Washington, they were worlds apart and you defame a great man in US history when you say there names in the same breath.

I have to say, after this weekend, and the Sunday shows, I am about fed up with the canonization of Saint Nelson.
 
Yeah I agree, Mandela didn't actually kill anyone and he forgave his oppressors. Washington was a slave owner and does not deserve the same recognition.

Mandela's rebellion freed white and black citizens of his country whereas Washington.... didn't. Mandela's rebellion didn't end with the wholesale slaughter and disenfranchisement of Native Americans whereas Washington's... did.

Definitely don't deserve the same pedestal.

We'll leave it at that.

Mandela never killed innocent civilians huh. You people are unbelievable and it saddens me to see how many are so misinformed and brainwashed by left wing hype. I will not even try to enlighten you though, I have tried with others and I will just add you in with them as people who really do not want to know the truth. :2wave:
 
G.H.W. Bush Blogs on the "genuine highlight" of his four years as president.



George H. W. Bush
Posted: 12/03/2013 10:48 am


Former President of the United States
Honoring Nelson Mandela

I was honored to be the first American President to welcome Mr. Mandela to the White House. It remains a genuine highlight from those four years I was privileged to hold that high office.

Together with Poland's Lech Walesa and Czechoslovakia's Vaclav Havel, I viewed Nelson Mandela as one of the great moral leaders during that hopeful and transformative era of global change.

Early in 1990, after President de Klerk announced his intention to release Mr. Mandela -- who was then the African National Congress leader -- I publicly welcomed the news as it was another significant step on the road to the nonracial, democratic South Africa we all desired.

Following his 27 years of wrongful imprisonment, it would have been understandable if Mr. Mandela had harbored and expressed more animosity -- more bitterness -- towards his political adversaries. That he didn't is one of the more remarkable examples of grace and dignity I have ever witnessed.

More than that, it showed Nelson Mandela's true wisdom and, indeed, his genuine devotion to the cause of all his countrymen that he did not indulge whatever personal emotions he may have felt in private.
Nelson Mandela knew that the progress for which he had long fought and suffered would be tougher to achieve had he contributed to a climate of division and recrimination.

In our meetings at the White House, on June 25, 1990, we talked about the future of South Africa -- and how the United States could contribute towards the positive change we were already seeing. We talked about how we shared the goal of true democracy and dismantling, once and for all, the vestiges of apartheid -- a system that based the rights and freedoms of citizenship on the color of one's skin.

Read More: Honoring Nelson Mandela | George H. W. Bush

Now get this: G. H.W. Wrote that TWO DAYS BEFORE MANDELA DIED.
 
Mandela never killed innocent civilians huh. You people are unbelievable and it saddens me to see how many are so misinformed and brainwashed by left wing hype. I will not even try to enlighten you though, I have tried with others and I will just add you in with them as people who really do not want to know the truth. :2wave:

If you know of any people that Mandela killed with his own bare hands please feel free to name them. Even the South African police never tried him for killing anyone directly.
He ordered bombings as a young man when forming umKhonto we Sizwe but there are no direct accounts of him leading men anywhere such as Washington did in Jumonville Glen and attacking sleeping unarmed men.
 
Mandela never killed innocent civilians huh. You people are unbelievable and it saddens me to see how many are so misinformed and brainwashed by left wing hype. I will not even try to enlighten you though, I have tried with others and I will just add you in with them as people who really do not want to know the truth. :2wave:
But if you murdered school teachers, tortured and raped women, mutilated and executed civilians and went by the name of Contras, according the St. Ronnie, you were "the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers" and not only that - he'll help fund ya and getcha the guns.
 
Mandela never killed innocent civilians huh. You people are unbelievable and it saddens me to see how many are so misinformed and brainwashed by left wing hype. I will not even try to enlighten you though, I have tried with others and I will just add you in with them as people who really do not want to know the truth. :2wave:

If you'd had a shred of evidence to back up your jaw-jaw, you'd have posted it days ago. You haven't. End of.
 
But if you murdered school teachers, tortured and raped women, mutilated and executed civilians and went by the name of Contras, according the St. Ronnie, you were "the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers" and not only that - he'll help fund ya and getcha the guns.

Ah, we get it....So, to you ideological preference makes one right, and one wrong....Funny isn't it how your own post here could be turned to be just as true for Mandela with the simple change of a name isn't it?

But if you murdered school teachers, tortured and raped women, mutilated and executed civilians and went by the name of the African National Congress, according the St. Nelson, you were "the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers"
 
Infinite Chaos;1062642398[B said:
]If you know of any people that Mandela killed with his own bare hands please feel free to name them[/B]. Even the South African police never tried him for killing anyone directly.
He ordered bombings as a young man when forming umKhonto we Sizwe but there are no direct accounts of him leading men anywhere such as Washington did in Jumonville Glen and attacking sleeping unarmed men.

Just like you are channeling Obama. Time for the caveats to begin, no more "period".:lol:
 
Ah, we get it....So, to you ideological preference makes one right, and one wrong....Funny isn't it how your own post here could be turned to be just as true for Mandela with the simple change of a name isn't it?

But if you murdered school teachers, tortured and raped women, mutilated and executed civilians and went by the name of the African National Congress, according the St. Nelson, you were "the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers"

How did that Contra thing work out?

How did that Mandela thing work out?

History speaks/.
 
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