• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

Why do they deserve this? How can anyone decide what people deserve?

If we can provide it, why wouldn't we? We produce something like 2-3 times the amount of food consumed in this country, yet not everyone can afford to buy it?

I should rephrase what I said. I don't want to use the word deserve, because no one deserves anything, but I'd call upon the have's to have a heart and help the have not's to fulfill the dreams our fathers lived and died for over the last several thousand years. Our country desperately needs morals.
 
If we can provide it, why wouldn't we? We produce something like 2-3 times the amount of food consumed in this country, yet not everyone can afford to buy it?

I should rephrase what I said. I don't want to use the word deserve, because no one deserves anything, but I'd call upon the have's to have a heart and help the have not's to fulfill the dreams our fathers lived and died for over the last several thousand years. Our country desperately needs morals.
I doubt that people lived and died for the last several thousand years in order to have welfare and food stamps.

What people did fight and die for was freedom, and dependence on government handouts is the antithesis of that.
 
I doubt that people lived and died for the last several thousand years in order to have welfare and food stamps.

What people did fight and die for was freedom, and dependence on government handouts is the antithesis of that.

Not speaking of those talking points, it has been Christian belief (which has dominated the globe for a thousand years), as well as Muslim belief, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. that have all advocated helping those in a lower position than ourselves. I wish food stamps didn't have to exist, but they exist to benefit the farmer just as much as the individual who doesn't get paid enough to afford to eat. I'm all for helping someone eat and have a home to sleep in. I'm not saying we hand out free ipads or videogame systems.
 
I'm not deciding what anyone gets paid. I'm just saying people deserve to be able to pay for an apartment, utilities, food, insurance, and set aside some money on a minimum wage job. Who am I to decide what people get paid? Who are you to determine people don't deserve to get paid? How can we pay someone thousands of times the current minimum wage but then scoff at people who can't find a job with a decent wage? It is unacceptable in today's world. We have ten times the wealth our fathers had (and most of it our fathers made, not us), yet we still refuse to cover basic needs across the board.

I dont decide what people get paid-THEY do, when they make it worth the costs to their employer. Thats how this works.

You appear to have misunderstanding of the fact that people work hardest for themselves. If someone wants to obtain the skills needed to make the money for an apartment, utilities, food, insurance, and a savings account more power to them-BUT IT IS NOT A GIVEN. You have to work for it.

You might think you are helping people by accepting mediocrity and subsidizing failure, via an entitlement society. Look where that road leads.

Bear-Necessities.jpg
 
Not speaking of those talking points, it has been Christian belief (which has dominated the globe for a thousand years), as well as Muslim belief, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. that have all advocated helping those in a lower position than ourselves. I wish food stamps didn't have to exist, but they exist to benefit the farmer just as much as the individual who doesn't get paid enough to afford to eat. I'm all for helping someone eat and have a home to sleep in. I'm not saying we hand out free ipads or videogame systems.
I'm all for helping others as well but having the government do what we as people should do is not part of any religion. It robs us of our humanity and we become irresponsible and thoughtless as a consequence.

I have lived in really poor countries, btw, and most Americans are not poor, except in spirit.
 
I dont decide what people get paid-THEY do, when they make it worth the costs to their employer. Thats how this works.

You appear to have misunderstanding of the fact that people work hardest for themselves. If someone wants to obtain the skills needed to make the money for an apartment, utilities, food, insurance, and a savings account more power to them-BUT IT IS NOT A GIVEN. You have to work for it.

You might think you are helping people by accepting mediocrity and subsidizing failure, via an entitlement society. Look where that road leads.

Bear-Necessities.jpg

I'd be careful using satire to ever make a point. John Stewart and Colbert will eat you alive with that kind of logic.

I'd also be careful living in a fantasy land where employers are always being fair and charitable and always rewarding those who work hard. Why do you think they do? Some do, many do, but many also care more about buying their million dollar home than making sure their employees can afford a $500/month rent.
 
I'm all for helping others as well but having the government do what we as people should do is not part of any religion. It robs us of our humanity and we become irresponsible and thoughtless as a consequence.

I have lived in really poor countries, btw, and most Americans are not poor, except in spirit.

Having the government take on any role is a new development in history, so it's hard to determine what religion would say. I'd say any policy that helps humanity in ways that God intended is a good course, and I only think it robs you of your humanity if you envy those that get some help because of their position.
 
Having the government take on any role is a new development in history, so it's hard to determine what religion would say. I'd say any policy that helps humanity in ways that God intended is a good course, and I only think it robs you of your humanity if you envy those that get some help because of their position.

I certainly don't envy those on food stamps or welfare. In fact I take great pleasure in being free of all of that and have some pride in the fact that, like many, was born poor but have enjoyed some success in life. Dependency on welfare would have robbed me of my freedom, and life as well.
 
I'd be careful using satire to ever make a point. John Stewart and Colbert will eat you alive with that kind of logic.

I'd also be careful living in a fantasy land where employers are always being fair and charitable and always rewarding those who work hard. Why do you think they do? Some do, many do, but many also care more about buying their million dollar home than making sure their employees can afford a $500/month rent.

Apparently you think that Jon Stewart and Colbert are anything but entertainers. I dont get my news or base any opinion on the Colbert report. Ive got to say, from life experience those that do are a bit behind the curve.

Employers are required to be fair-in that they must comply with laws and hold people accountable for their skills and performance-but an unskilled worker is earning what he is worth-minimum wage. Charity? Now you are being silly, its not a manager of a branch of a business to be "charitable" by whatever arbitrary and emotion fueled definition you might offer. People aren't earning minimum wage because they are being screwed over by their manager. The turnover at say McDonalds is over 100% a year-because they quickly learn the skills to transition into another job. Its not because the managers are evil at mcdonalds.

Besides-its not that managers job to GIVE his paycheck to others as charity.

How much do you earn? Why aren't you giving it to the local homeless?
 
I certainly don't envy those on food stamps or welfare. In fact I take great pleasure in being free of all of that and have some pride in the fact that, like many, was born poor but have enjoyed some success in life. Dependency on welfare would have robbed me of my freedom, and life as well.

I find myself lucky not to be on food stamps, as I know many of my family members that have literally no other choice in spite of being hard workers... there just are very few decent jobs where I live. I don't take pride on being lucky. I thank God, and then I thank him again that he feeds my cousins and sisters.
 
If we can provide it, why wouldn't we? We produce something like 2-3 times the amount of food consumed in this country, yet not everyone can afford to buy it?

I should rephrase what I said. I don't want to use the word deserve, because no one deserves anything, but I'd call upon the have's to have a heart and help the have not's to fulfill the dreams our fathers lived and died for over the last several thousand years. Our country desperately needs morals.

Give your cell phone to the poor, I will get you a pre-paid phone.
 
We're at an interesting impasse then...

Your source states (if I read you right) that the US has a higher suicide rate but my source (the OECD) has figures saying the exact opposite. South Korea, Japan, Finland - all nations who have scored most highly in the PISA tests all have horrendous youth suicide rates.
The one that surprises me most if Finland because the Scandinavian approach to school is the exact opposite to all other "sausage factory" approaches and kids have an extended childhood and start education at 8.

Anyhow - are our statistics the same or is this the old adage about "lies, damned lies and statistics?"

Not sure but I have always said that all these stats about "good education systems" are bunk. Anybody who wants to learn and values education will learn and succeed. There is no system that is really better than another.
 
You hit on a key point. With a much less diverse population in multiple categories, education becomes much easier to plan and execute for a school system and its faculty.

Multiculturalism is a very hot topic in Europe because the desired effect has not been realized. Quite the opposite, in fact. France is losing its identity entirely, as is England and other places.

My two oldest went through the public system and have done very well. However, my youngest is going the private route because the game is changing too fast.

I see those that attack the US system as having an agenda... especially if they are attacking teachers.
 
Apparently you think that Jon Stewart and Colbert are anything but entertainers. I dont get my news or base any opinion on the Colbert report. Ive got to say, from life experience those that do are a bit behind the curve.

Employers are required to be fair-in that they must comply with laws and hold people accountable for their skills and performance-but an unskilled worker is earning what he is worth-minimum wage. Charity? Now you are being silly, its not a manager of a branch of a business to be "charitable" by whatever arbitrary and emotion fueled definition you might offer. People aren't earning minimum wage because they are being screwed over by their manager. The turnover at say McDonalds is over 100% a year-because they quickly learn the skills to transition into another job. Its not because the managers are evil at mcdonalds.

Besides-its not that managers job to GIVE his paycheck to others as charity.

How much do you earn? Why aren't you giving it to the local homeless?

My point was that Stewart and Colbert are masters of satire, and use jokes exactly like you did. I didn't say I look up to them, but that satire is a poor form of logic to ever use.

The turnover at McDonalds is not just due to transitioning to another job, it's also just plain hard. I've worked there, and I've gotta say it was the hardest job that I ever had.

I earn a little over 40k a year right now in a low income part of the state. I do a job that takes less skill than being a cook but gets paid more because of unions over the last century. I'm a railroader.

I give money to my church every week. I give money to my cousin who is struggling right now because he can't find a better job. I give gifts to my family on every holiday, frequently give money to organizations like the salvation army (that I benefited from when I was a child with a single mom after my dad died), always tip well at restaurants, and in general I cover the tab for things like getting coffee with my friends and other such things. Why? Because I give a damn. Ultimately, my donations and charitable efforts affect not just those immediately around me, but also the homeless that come to my church for meals. I pay taxes that cover programs like WIC and SNAP to help out. Don't single me out on this, I'd gladly pay my employees more than minimum wage. I'd certainly make sure I never made more than double the lowest entry position.

But now that I answered your question, how about you tell me how much you earn and where your charities go?
 
Give your cell phone to the poor, I will get you a pre-paid phone.

I have a dumb phone that costs $30/month. It was $12, but I need more minutes because I am away from home as much as I am. I am on literally the cheapest plan I can find with the cheapest phone I need to cover my basic family social needs.

That's just a terrible argument to make.
 
My point was that Stewart and Colbert are masters of satire, and use jokes exactly like you did. I didn't say I look up to them, but that satire is a poor form of logic to ever use.

The turnover at McDonalds is not just due to transitioning to another job, it's also just plain hard. I've worked there, and I've gotta say it was the hardest job that I ever had.

I earn a little over 40k a year right now in a low income part of the state. I do a job that takes less skill than being a cook but gets paid more because of unions over the last century. I'm a railroader.

I give money to my church every week. I give money to my cousin who is struggling right now because he can't find a better job. I give gifts to my family on every holiday, frequently give money to organizations like the salvation army (that I benefited from when I was a child with a single mom after my dad died), always tip well at restaurants, and in general I cover the tab for things like getting coffee with my friends and other such things. Why? Because I give a damn. Ultimately, my donations and charitable efforts affect not just those immediately around me, but also the homeless that come to my church for meals. I pay taxes that cover programs like WIC and SNAP to help out. Don't single me out on this, I'd gladly pay my employees more than minimum wage. I'd certainly make sure I never made more than double the lowest entry position.

But now that I answered your question, how about you tell me how much you earn and where your charities go?

I think you sound like a hard working guy, learn some skills and you can go even further. How much you and any employees you might someday have depends on WHAT YOU ARE WORTH TO THE COMPANY. Its NOT a moral statement, you seem to believe it is. Id like to see you start thinking more with your brain instead of your heart, because the solution is NOT emotional or moral.

I make 6 figures but only the last year or so. I rarely donate, I work with Flying Doctors, in southern california and northern Mexico, treating sick Mexicans.
http://www.flyingdocs.org/
 
That's just a terrible argument to make.

So is wealth distribution to unskilled labor.

Watch this for an example of using your head over heart.

Why I am against almost ALL aid to africa.

[video]http://fora.tv/2009/06/05/Uncommon_Knowledge_Dambisa_Moyo[/video]
 
Last edited:
I think you sound like a hard working guy, learn some skills and you can go even further. How much you and any employees you might someday have depends on WHAT YOU ARE WORTH TO THE COMPANY. Its NOT a moral statement, you seem to believe it is. Id like to see you start thinking more with your brain instead of your heart, because the solution is NOT emotional or moral.

I make 6 figures but only the last year or so. I rarely donate, I work with Flying Doctors, in southern california and northern Mexico, treating sick Mexicans.
Welcome to Los Médicos Voladores

Who decides what YOU are worth, though? If I'm the boss, I decide what I'm worth at the expense of my other workers. So, for example when I was a waiter/server at a restaurant, I was making 2.83/hr and 7.25 when I cooked one day a week. The turnover rate was high, and in a matter of a year I was one of the most seasoned veterans on staff and on management track. The problem was that managers only made 8.50 an hour. The entire business was family run at the top level, though, where the lowest paid salary was over $100k. This family did very little to add to the company, they did no ground level work, and ultimately were just leeching off of the workers and store managers.

Then I found a job at Denny's Beer Barrel & Pub, and I started out making 8.50 an hour plus about an additional 2.50 an hour in tips as a line cook (11/hour). Within a month, I was up to 12 an hour, and six months later was at 12.75/hour. That translates to something around 27k a year, which is honestly a living wage where I live. The thing was, my manager made 16 an hour, and my owners (Father and son), only made about 50k each per year. These guys built a hugely successful restaurant on the principle that giving a damn about your employees would make a better restaurant, and it translated in having workers stay there for years and years. Ultimately, I had to leave when I found out my wife was pregnant and completely lucked into getting the job as a conductor at the railroad.

Now, who was worth more, the cook at the first restaurant or Denny's? The truth is, both companies saw similar revenues based on the number of employees they had. But, one company valued the owners more and the second less so. The difference was who cared more, and having a heart led to a much better restaurant that is one of the most famous private restaurants in the country and arguably the best burger joint on the east coast.
 
Who decides what YOU are worth, though? If I'm the boss, I decide what I'm worth at the expense of my other workers. So, for example when I was a waiter/server at a restaurant, I was making 2.83/hr and 7.25 when I cooked one day a week. The turnover rate was high, and in a matter of a year I was one of the most seasoned veterans on staff and on management track. The problem was that managers only made 8.50 an hour. The entire business was family run at the top level, though, where the lowest paid salary was over $100k. This family did very little to add to the company, they did no ground level work, and ultimately were just leeching off of the workers and store managers.

Then I found a job at Denny's Beer Barrel & Pub, and I started out making 8.50 an hour plus about an additional 2.50 an hour in tips as a line cook (11/hour). Within a month, I was up to 12 an hour, and six months later was at 12.75/hour. That translates to something around 27k a year, which is honestly a living wage where I live. The thing was, my manager made 16 an hour, and my owners (Father and son), only made about 50k each per year. These guys built a hugely successful restaurant on the principle that giving a damn about your employees would make a better restaurant, and it translated in having workers stay there for years and years. Ultimately, I had to leave when I found out my wife was pregnant and completely lucked into getting the job as a conductor at the railroad.

Now, who was worth more, the cook at the first restaurant or Denny's? The truth is, both companies saw similar revenues based on the number of employees they had. But, one company valued the owners more and the second less so. The difference was who cared more, and having a heart led to a much better restaurant that is one of the most famous private restaurants in the country and arguably the best burger joint on the east coast.

Actually if you are the boss you decide how the limited resources of the company should be spent. You have quite a bit of bias showing through.

I statistically make my boss over 100K a year. I make just over that, and I cost another 25K or so in education, expenses etc. But after those expenses and my salary, I still make money. Im worth it to the company, if I was not, I would not be making what I do.

Have you considered taking a business class? Serious question, you sound like a nice guy and might go far.
 
Actually if you are the boss you decide how the limited resources of the company should be spent. You have quite a bit of bias showing through.

I statistically make my boss over 100K a year. I make just over that, and I cost another 25K or so in education, expenses etc. But after those expenses and my salary, I still make money. Im worth it to the company, if I was not, I would not be making what I do.

Have you considered taking a business class? Serious question, you sound like a nice guy and might go far.

You are right, and thus an employees wages are based on the allocation of limited resources, which at that point morals of an employer determine a lot.

My wife is in accounting school currently. After that, I plan on going back to school, but obviously my situation has constraints. I have taken a business class as well as a business ethics class and an accounting class. I have 54 credits through Penn State, but after switching my major a bunch and going through a pot smoking phase, I dropped out (my GPA remains around a 3.3). But, just like anything else, I have to make a long series of good choices if I ever wish to get back into school and further, I have to make far better choices than I previously did if I ever get back into school.
 
.

Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

And we spend more per child on education then any other country. in 2011 we spent $7,743 per child two times as much as the Asian countries do
U.S. Education Spending & Student Performance vs. The World Infographic | MAT@USC | USC Rossier Online

so I don't want to hear any solutions that is about wasting more money on a broken system

First and for most we need to get rid of the teachers unions they are more concerned about stuffing their pockets then educating our children

second we need to pay teachers based on performance and not on tenure like they do every where else in the private sector

third we need to implement school choice let the schools compete for students and when there is competition there is improvement

In America we've chosen to place the best interests of those in the education profession ahead of the best interests of students. That's not to say we don't try to do the very best we can for students because we do, but all within a framework where "the system" comes first. After its own preeminence, its primary unwritten mission is to serve the profession then through and only through the system are the students' best interests pursued. For example, typically the system promotes one of the best ways to improve student achievement is by strengthening the system by giving it more money to increase the compensation of the education profession.
 
.

First and for most we need to get rid of the teachers unions they are more concerned about stuffing their pockets then educating our children

Just my opinion. I don't have a problem with teachers unions. I don't have a problem with paying teachers well. I just want students to come first.

second we need to pay teachers based on performance and not on tenure like they do every where else in the private sector

Maybe. I think some consideration needs to be made for teachers who are assigned to students who don't want to learn, are ill equipped to do as well as other students, come from less than ideal home environments, etc. None of these things are the teachers' faults and they shouldn't be penalized in my opinion because they teach students who's parents can afford cultural and educational enrichment, in-home technology that would help in educations, etc. Likewise, I don't think a teacher has done anything special just because they got to teach students from intact, affluent homes where them parents all have college degrees.

third we need to implement school choice let the schools compete for students and when there is competition there is improvement

Agree completely! Plus all kinds of creative educational options will start springing up. Night school to match schedules for kids who's parents work odd hours. More international exchange options even inexpensively via something like Skype, partnerships with universities, partnerships with industry, etc. I just think we need to have certain safeguards to prevent segregation, schools are all accredited or are pursuing accreditation while students meet or exceed benchmarks in standardized testing.
 
Not sure but I have always said that all these stats about "good education systems" are bunk. Anybody who wants to learn and values education will learn and succeed. There is no system that is really better than another.

I see those that attack the US system as having an agenda... especially if they are attacking teachers.

Without family values and support to succeed - even the brightest will struggle.

One student I am working with has parents who laugh at her ambitions whenever she's done well if I talk to her about going off to University. 95% of my pastoral support tutorials with her are about rebuilding her confidence. She'll pass this year but whether she stays on and passes the final year to go to University will be down to her parent's attitudes and support.
 
Without family values and support to succeed - even the brightest will struggle.

One student I am working with has parents who laugh at her ambitions whenever she's done well if I talk to her about going off to University. 95% of my pastoral support tutorials with her are about rebuilding her confidence. She'll pass this year but whether she stays on and passes the final year to go to University will be down to her parent's attitudes and support.
This is an incredible story! Have you asked her parent's why they treat her like this and will they accept counseling? Can she be removed from the environment?
 
This is an incredible story! Have you asked her parent's why they treat her like this and will they accept counseling? Can she be removed from the environment?

I can't be blunt with them I'm afraid - the only thing I can do is work with her to keep her confidence and ambitions up. her parents are farmers and we are up in the North where a lot of women still end up living gender assigned / defined lives.

It is frustrating at times but I have to work with them and her, if she goes on to be more than just someone's wife on a farm here then I will have achieved something.
 
Back
Top Bottom