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Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

but if you look at the article it is more then just the Asian countries that are kicking our ass Poland is kicking our ass

Overall... not with those that value education in the USA. In that category we are at the very top.
 
First, we need to have a single language education system... like they do.
Second, when they have the divorce rates that we do... then we will see better results.
Third, we need to get rid of gangs, thugs and cure cullying... like they don't have.
Fourth, we need to stop illegal immigration... like they do.
Fifth, we need families to prioritize education as a value over the mass media, sports and video games,.. like they do.
I can go on and on...

so for other words get rid of liberal progressive policies and reinstate conservative family values back into the culture
 
So, if we pick the schools and filter out the underachievers, like China does, we will be #1! ;)
:roll:
so what excuses are you going to give for the other 20 plus countries ahead of us

If you took Massachusetts and put it into the PISA rankings (just as Shanghai and Hong Kong are selected from all of China) you would find Massachusetts ranks 6th overall in the world.

The US remains average or below average, below countries such as Russia and Spain, but individual states are high performers.

If Massachusetts was ranked as a country it would be sixth best in the world, ahead of any European country
. Link

I'm pretty certain unions, tenure etc are fairy similar in this state to most other US states so other causes will be a factor for the US poor performance overall.

First, we need to have a single language education system... like they do.
Second, when they have the divorce rates that we do... then we will see better results.
Third, we need to get rid of gangs, thugs and cure cullying... like they don't have.
Fourth, we need to stop illegal immigration... like they do.
Fifth, we need families to prioritize education as a value over the mass media, sports and video games,.. like they do.
I can go on and on...

Where does high youth suicide rate fit in on this wishlist to be like Asian countries?
 
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This discipline problem is not limited to just a few schools. It only takes 3 or 4 morons to disrupt the entire class and with our "rights" it is difficult to expel anyone, short of a felony. If a school district naturally lacks these morons then they are often bused in, making it even harder to "target" them. We must maintain "diversity" at all costs.

Student diversity through busing: Not as easy as it sounded - CSMonitor.com

The only escape is AP classes, which I force (they'd do it anyway) my kids to take. That gets rid of much of the unwashed riff raff because you've effectively created a school within a school. (Soon, the Obamas of the world will outlaw such classes as racist and discriminatory.)

And you're right, this is even in a well-heeled suburban burg.
 
so for other words get rid of liberal progressive policies and reinstate conservative family values back into the culture

I don't think that there is anything wrong with liberal progressive policies... which ones hurt individuals anyway? But yes, the break up of the traditional family unit has hurt society. The biggest thing to hurt children is discipline. Parents are told not to spank but don't know how to do the time out method properly because it is a skill, not something that you can just do. Gangs. Thugs. Hip hop culture. Kids suing parents. It is just a mess and comparing our education system to others is unfair. Our top kids are still top or more so, on the world stage.

New Zealand has a better ranked system than the USA. Society is pretty even in that most are European descendants. The Maori would be like our Mexicans, except a lot less of them. When Kiwis go to the USA for exchange they realize that they are, in general, behind. When American students go to New Zealand they realize that they are 1-2 years ahead of Kiwis even though the US system is supposedly behind. Why? Because gangs, non-English speakers, etc. are what is ruining the education system in the US... not the teachers. Not the curriculum.

When I taught in California I had two ELL Classes. English Language Learners. Nothing was learned in that class all year. I was teaching how to say door, or teacher. basic words. Students in that class didn't speak English and I spoke limited Spanish but I had an Israeli, a Pakastani (that sure made lessons fun!) a bunch of south of the border kids speaking various dialects of broken Spanish, three Vietnamese and a kid from Poland. They all took the same tests that the rest of the kids took but they all failed miserably and that brings down the over all score for the school, district, state and nation. Multiply this to every school and you see a massive problem. Then throw in gangs, ADD, social media bullying, etc and the political correctness bull **** (that is liberalism) that says all kids can be university students and all the other crap and we have problems that no teacher can ever hope to solve.
 
but if you look at the article it is more then just the Asian countries that are kicking our ass Poland is kicking our ass

As I originally wrote, I don't know how accurate these "international" tests are, when it comes to comparisons. Kind of like when the World Health Organization attempted to gather mortality rates for countries from around the world. Turns out the data was so flawed the results were meaningless.

In this "test" case, Shanghai is such an outlier, the auther called their results meaningless.

Of this I am fairly certain, regardless of the country, the problem, and the solution, is found at home.
 
Where does high youth suicide rate fit in on this wishlist to be like Asian countries?

Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries

I looked really quickly but it looks like non-US nations have about half the suicide rate that the USA does... another factor. I had three students commit suicide in four year. Four went to prison for felonies. Two were put into coma's after being beaten at parties. One school I taught at was a war zone. SWAT was there a few times. Drug arrests. Violent gang incidents weekly. How the hell is anybody supposed to learn?
 
Very accurate assessement.

My son spent a year in South Korea teaching English in a private "after school" academy. The entire focus of the family, and for that matter South Korean society, is on education in preparation for the College entrance exams giving at the end of High School. Kids go to school 6 days a week, and according to my son, they typically attend class from 8am to around 8pm, with breaks for lunch and dinner. This is for kids 8 years old and beyond.

On the down side, these kids have very little imagination, again according to my son. Apparently the focus on precise answers year after year, removes much thought in the abstract.

I can certainly see the harm with the good there. That kills the spirit of education, which is to foster a hunger for discovery and achievement beyond the classroom. Those Korean schools sound too clinical, too procedural.

Then again, they live under the constant threat of North Korea, China, etc., in all arenas. They live a very different reality.
 
I don't think that there is anything wrong with liberal progressive policies... which ones hurt individuals anyway? But yes, the break up of the traditional family unit has hurt society. The biggest thing to hurt children is discipline. Parents are told not to spank but don't know how to do the time out method properly because it is a skill, not something that you can just do. Gangs. Thugs. Hip hop culture. Kids suing parents. It is just a mess and comparing our education system to others is unfair. Our top kids are still top or more so, on the world stage.

New Zealand has a better ranked system than the USA. Society is pretty even in that most are European descendants. The Maori would be like our Mexicans, except a lot less of them. When Kiwis go to the USA for exchange they realize that they are, in general, behind. When American students go to New Zealand they realize that they are 1-2 years ahead of Kiwis even though the US system is supposedly behind. Why? Because gangs, non-English speakers, etc. are what is ruining the education system in the US... not the teachers. Not the curriculum.

When I taught in California I had two ELL Classes. English Language Learners. Nothing was learned in that class all year. I was teaching how to say door, or teacher. basic words. Students in that class didn't speak English and I spoke limited Spanish but I had an Israeli, a Pakastani (that sure made lessons fun!) a bunch of south of the border kids speaking various dialects of broken Spanish, three Vietnamese and a kid from Poland. They all took the same tests that the rest of the kids took but they all failed miserably and that brings down the over all score for the school, district, state and nation. Multiply this to every school and you see a massive problem. Then throw in gangs, ADD, social media bullying, etc and the political correctness bull **** (that is liberalism) that says all kids can be university students and all the other crap and we have problems that no teacher can ever hope to solve.

You hit on a key point. With a much less diverse population in multiple categories, education becomes much easier to plan and execute for a school system and its faculty.

Multiculturalism is a very hot topic in Europe because the desired effect has not been realized. Quite the opposite, in fact. France is losing its identity entirely, as is England and other places.

My two oldest went through the public system and have done very well. However, my youngest is going the private route because the game is changing too fast.
 
Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries

I looked really quickly but it looks like non-US nations have about half the suicide rate that the USA does... another factor. I had three students commit suicide in four year. Four went to prison for felonies. Two were put into coma's after being beaten at parties. One school I taught at was a war zone. SWAT was there a few times. Drug arrests. Violent gang incidents weekly. How the hell is anybody supposed to learn?

We're at an interesting impasse then...

Your source states (if I read you right) that the US has a higher suicide rate but my source (the OECD) has figures saying the exact opposite. South Korea, Japan, Finland - all nations who have scored most highly in the PISA tests all have horrendous youth suicide rates.
The one that surprises me most if Finland because the Scandinavian approach to school is the exact opposite to all other "sausage factory" approaches and kids have an extended childhood and start education at 8.

Anyhow - are our statistics the same or is this the old adage about "lies, damned lies and statistics?"
 
My son shares your sentiment. After a year teaching in a private school in Changwon, South Korea, he was ready to get back to Southern California.

Let me see if I can put this in a few words. My son once asked his class to write down what they did with their friends in their free time. After several minutes of explanation, and lots of questions, the response was something like, "what's free time?". It wasn't a complaint, it was complete confusion over the concept of "free time".

I'm not sure what the balance is. I don't think it's the extreme as seen in many parts of industrialized Asia.

And here we are, on the other end of the scale, trying to reduce the dropout rates in our schools! If it wasn't so sad, it would be comical, because our kids sure know what free time is! I doubt the South Koreans give their children the Summer off from school! :doh:.
 
We're at an interesting impasse then...

Your source states (if I read you right) that the US has a higher suicide rate but my source (the OECD) has figures saying the exact opposite. South Korea, Japan, Finland - all nations who have scored most highly in the PISA tests all have horrendous youth suicide rates.
The one that surprises me most if Finland because the Scandinavian approach to school is the exact opposite to all other "sausage factory" approaches and kids have an extended childhood and start education at 8.

Anyhow - are our statistics the same or is this the old adage about "lies, damned lies and statistics?"

The teenage suicide rate here is much higher. It's relatively epidemic in America, and it stands to reason when your whole sense of values and discipline comes from social media, Hollywood, and the hip hop world.
 
The teenage suicide rate here is much higher. It's relatively epidemic in America, and it stands to reason when your whole sense of values and discipline comes from social media, Hollywood, and the hip hop world.

The OECD must be lying then because a second OECD chart (apart from the one in my link) states that the United States teen suicide rate is only just above the OECD average. They even state the the US ten suicide rate is falling.

The OECD themselves take data from the World Health Organisation database which sources data from national governments statistics agencies.

Increasing suicide rates have been noticeable for Chile, Ireland, Japan and Mexico, although Ireland and Mexico have shown more stable rates from 2000 onwards. Except for Mexico, these countries
began the period with rates below the OECD average and ended up with rates above the OECD average in
2008. On the contrary, declining suicide rates have been noticeable for Estonia, Finland and United
States. All these countries began the period with rates much above the OECD average and are much
closer to the OECD average in 2008.

Link.
 
Obviously we are not spending enough money on education in America. We need to pay teachers more and somehow spend more per student at every opportunity. That will fix it I'm sure.:roll:

Yes, we need to pay teachers more, but we also need to hire a much higher grade of teachers in general. There are a bunch of high school teachers in America that have no business teaching anything.

And we MUST get the political BS out of academia, especially at the collegiate level. College has become more of an indoctrination clinic than an arena for advanced learning.
 
Yes, we need to pay teachers more, but we also need to hire a much higher grade of teachers in general. There are a bunch of high school teachers in America that have no business teaching anything.

And we MUST get the political BS out of academia, especially at the collegiate level. College has become more of an indoctrination clinic than an arena for advanced learning.

Teachers could be paid more if we could get rid of the bad ones and let the new ones start low and work their way up in wages just like in the real world.
 
There is something ass jack backwards about our society where some dude gets paid millions to throw a football. Yet Paramedics, Firefighters and Teachers in comparison make crap money. Our priorities and what we place value on is skewed.
 
The difference is other countries the kids GET to go to school. Here is the united state of stupids the morons HAVE to go to school. American kids dress like losers so they become losers. Everything is sports and who is dating who, who has the best electronic crap and who is pregnant by whom. Look back at movies from the early days of film like the 1930s and see even back then school and education was viewed as for bookworms only. Sad but true and this has not changed.
 
There is something ass jack backwards about our society where some dude gets paid millions to throw a football. Yet Paramedics, Firefighters and Teachers in comparison make crap money. Our priorities and what we place value on is skewed.

That's not what money is. It is not a reward. It is purely and only a reflection of rarity and demand.

That dude that throws the football CREATES far more money than he is paid because he's one of a very select few capable of doing what he does. Just like a brain surgeon or Bill Gates in that there just isn't many of him. Not so with American History teachers or firefighters. There are plenty of those, so they're a dime a dozen.

The real shame is the money paid to Hollywood actors. There are LOTS of good actors in the world; it's based largely on luck and politics as to who gets to be the "stars" and who waits tables and plays bit roles.
 
The difference is other countries the kids GET to go to school. Here is the united state of stupids the morons HAVE to go to school. American kids dress like losers so they become losers. Everything is sports and who is dating who, who has the best electronic crap and who is pregnant by whom. Look back at movies from the early days of film like the 1930s and see even back then school and education was viewed as for bookworms only. Sad but true and this has not changed.

And again, this all relates back to parenting. And until a certain political party starts being honest about this, the fallback excuses and diversions will never allow this to change.
 
That's not what money is. It is not a reward. It is purely and only a reflection of rarity and demand.

That dude that throws the football CREATES far more money than he is paid because he's one of a very select few capable of doing what he does. Just like a brain surgeon or Bill Gates in that there just isn't many of him. Not so with American History teachers or firefighters. There are plenty of those, so they're a dime a dozen.

The real shame is the money paid to Hollywood actors. There are LOTS of good actors in the world; it's based largely on luck and politics as to who gets to be the "stars" and who waits tables and plays bit roles.
Very bizarre way to look at a profession of individuals who puts their lives on the line to save others. People who will risk their lives running into burning buildings are not a dime a dozen.
 
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Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

And we spend more per child on education then any other country. in 2011 we spent $7,743 per child two times as much as the Asian countries do
U.S. Education Spending & Student Performance vs. The World Infographic | MAT@USC | USC Rossier Online

so I don't want to hear any solutions that is about wasting more money on a broken system

First and for most we need to get rid of the teachers unions they are more concerned about stuffing their pockets then educating our children

second we need to pay teachers based on performance and not on tenure like they do every where else in the private sector

third we need to implement school choice let the schools compete for students and when there is competition there is improvement

Stop putting all the blame on the teachers and put alot more on the parents.
 
Exactly. For example, here in Southern California, the Los Angeles Unified School District is so desperate to remove the impediment of parents in the "education" of the children, they provide year round meals, 7 days a week to students throughout the district.

Here is an article from a local newspaper outlining the program.


Free Food for Kids and Teens During the Summer

The school year is over, but that doesn't mean children and teens should go hungry if they don't have food at home.


Gee, parents don't even have to worry about feeding their children any more. Add in the clothes program, and what the heck, parents are only needed to provide the DNA for future minions of the Progressive Machine. Well, in fairness, they are also needed as a means to coodinate state provided shelter for the future minions as well.​


No,but I have to pay to feed and babysit their kids.​
 
Stop putting all the blame on the teachers and put alot more on the parents.

then you must be for home schooling if you are trying to shift the blame onto the parents and if it is their responsibility then let them take the full responsibility
 
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Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

And we spend more per child on education then any other country. in 2011 we spent $7,743 per child two times as much as the Asian countries do
U.S. Education Spending & Student Performance vs. The World Infographic | MAT@USC | USC Rossier Online

so I don't want to hear any solutions that is about wasting more money on a broken system

First and for most we need to get rid of the teachers unions they are more concerned about stuffing their pockets then educating our children

second we need to pay teachers based on performance and not on tenure like they do every where else in the private sector

third we need to implement school choice let the schools compete for students and when there is competition there is improvement

Yes, but US catches up after college. And not only that, your choices for college are not determined midway through elementary school as in many of the competitive asian countries like Japan. So more open University system, US students catch up to the world after a 4 year college education.

There's plenty to do to improve our lower education levels. But ending teacher's unions and punishing teachers when we already cannot find enough to teach isn't really going to help.
 
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