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Thread: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

  1. #131
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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Japan does have a military - a very powerful one. The only stipulation is that they must call it a 'self defence force' and they can (theoretically) only defend Japan itself.

    But since Japan calls these rocks (islands) part of Japan, then it can legally and constitutionally defend them using it's own navy.


    List of active Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Granted. The issue though remains that they are capped on just what they can do militarily with a budget a third the size of China, and 9500x smaller military... they really don't stand much of a chance due to those limitations. And we also have security agreements that obligates us to serve as a defensive force.

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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Granted. The issue though remains that they are capped on just what they can do militarily with a budget a third the size of China, and 9500x smaller military... they really don't stand much of a chance due to those limitations. And we also have security agreements that obligates us to serve as a defensive force.
    Well, as of right now, imo, Japan has a more powerful Navy/Air Force then China...but that is besides the point.

    Japan Air Self-Defense Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    List of active Chinese military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    (sure, China has more 'stuff' - but most of it is second rate - and despite their Su-27 copies, they have nothing can match Japan's F-15's).


    And I don't care what America's agreement is.

    I say it is none of her business and Japan can take care of itself. If they cannot - tough.

    Enough brave Americans have died and enough American trillions of tax dollars have been wasted to settle other people's disputes.

    The world can get along without America holding it's hand.

    And with America's economy in stagnation and her national debt still growing fast, in a decade or two - America simply will not be able to afford to be the world's cops.
    Last edited by DA60; 11-30-13 at 02:16 PM.

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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Well, as of right now, imo, Japan has a more powerful Navy/Air Force then China...but that is besides the point.

    And I don't care what America's agreement is.

    I say it is none of her business and Japan can take care of itself. If they cannot - tough.

    Enough brave Americans have died and enough American trillions of tax dollars have been wasted to settle other people's disputes.

    The world can get along without America holding it's hand.
    Japan has a stronger air force/navy than China? According to whom?

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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Japan has a stronger air force/navy than China? According to whom?
    Check my post again.

    And...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rmy_Navy_ships

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...se_Force_ships

    Japan has a VERY advanced Navy - maybe the fourth or fifth most powerful in the world.

    China is slowly re-tooling - but they still cannot match Japan's.
    Last edited by DA60; 11-30-13 at 02:24 PM.

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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It is Japan's Airspace. China publishing a map that says "oh, this is ours now" does not actually make it theirs.



    If this is a plan, then my bet would be it looks like this:

    Raise tensions to the point where Japan finally shoots down a Chinese UAV. Declare that to be an Act of War, and take some posturing moves. Then declare that you're willing to start talks over the issue, thereby placing Japan in a no-win situation. Either they can refuse, in which case China appears to be de-escalating and Japan looks like the aggressor (which is easy for her to do in that region of the world) thus degrading her ability to form closer defense relationships with the Philippines, Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, et. al., or Japan has to admit the disputed nature of the Senkakus (which - I would bet - would be what China is after).

    But I think it is very possible that you are correct that they simply did not anticipate a Combined US-JPN-ROK reaction like they've seen. I wonder if they read too much into our failure to defend red lines in Syria and focus on Iranian negotiations.



    Well, outside of the above scenario, yeah, they are in some trouble. The question that I wonder who is asking is what the leaderships self-perceived ability to back down is. If they are - as a growing number thing - in for some serious fiscal pain with their economic readjustment, then it may be that they can't afford to look weak on Restoring the Grand Tradition as well.
    Nice post.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Check my post again.

    And...

    List of active People's Liberation Army Navy ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    List of active Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Japan has a VERY advanced Navy - maybe the second or third most powerful in the world.

    China is slowly re-tooling - but they still cannot match Japan's - not even close.
    Okay, even according to these sites, China still outmatches Japan in terms of raw tonnage and number of personnel. And as far as the air force, it's not even close to being in Japan's favor:

    Top 10 Largest Air Forces in the World

    Top 10 Naval Forces in The World

    To your overall point though, I am generally anti-getting in another countries affair. But with Japan, we are talking about not only a long time ally, but a military that has been intentionally gimped by the United States. Personally, I'd like to toss out the idea of then having only a "Defense Force", but it is what it is. There is also the fact that a disruption of commerce in either the East of South China sea would hit the US Economy hard.

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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Okay, even according to these sites, China still outmatches Japan in terms of raw tonnage and number of personnel. And as far as the air force, it's not even close to being in Japan's favor:

    Top 10 Largest Air Forces in the World

    Top 10 Naval Forces in The World

    To your overall point though, I am generally anti-getting in another countries affair. But with Japan, we are talking about not only a long time ally, but a military that has been intentionally gimped by the United States. Personally, I'd like to toss out the idea of then having only a "Defense Force", but it is what it is. There is also the fact that a disruption of commerce in either the East of South China sea would hit the US Economy hard.

    Surely you realize that there is more to a military then sheer numbers.

    The most advanced fighter jet the Chinese has is a copy of the Russian Su-27. Though it is a (imo) good plane - I believe it is no match for the F-15's that Japan has. Plus, they have 200 J-10's - which seem to me like second-class F-16's. Again, a useful plane - but still no match for Japan's Eagle's. And most of China's other fighters/bombers are basically junk - warmed over versions of fifty/sixty year old designs.

    As for their navy, it has some decent ships - but again, still no match for the Japanese Aegis-style destroyers (which are basically U.S. Arleigh Burke-class copies, which are America's first line destroyers).

    Sure, China has an aircraft carrier under trials. But it is a redone 30+ year old ex-Soviet ship. And an aircraft carrier is only as good as it's planes/pilots. And again, this ship will only carry 30 Su-27-types - no match for Japanese F-15's (imo).

    Now, with China's huge economy, this situation will not last. But for now, Japan can take care of itself (conventionally).


    And as for America 'gimped' the Japanese military? I strongly disagree.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_expenditures

    Only four other countries spend more on their military then Japan does. And America has/is sold Japan some very advanced weapon systems.


    But again, this is besides the point to me.

    It is their problem. Just like Syria is it's problem. Just like Israel/whomever is their problem.

    I don't care what treaties were signed - time to re-do them and stop losing American dollars and (more importantly) American lives fighting other people's problems in the middle of nowhere.


    You don't agree - that is you prerogative.
    Last edited by DA60; 11-30-13 at 02:51 PM.

  8. #138
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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    But again, this is besides the point to me.

    It is their problem. Just like Syria is it's problem. Just like Israel/whomever is their problem.

    I don't care what treaties were signed - time to re-do them and stop losing American dollars and (more importantly) American lives fighting other people's problems in the middle of nowhere.

    You don't agree - that is you prerogative.

    To your point though, if we don't honor our treaties with other countries, wouldn't that cause us to lose all credibility? How could we then expect any nation to honor their treaties with us?

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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    i wouldnt be too worried about such a chinese carrier,its built off a russian carrier,and russia to date has never had a successfull aircraft carrier,they could build missle and tanks and advanced jets,but asking them to buuild a functioning aircraft carrier,and the russian engineers cringe.
    .
    It all depends how the Chinese plan to use their carriers.

    The U.S. Navy uses it's carriers today as a strike platform against land targets. We use to have CVS ASW carriers but no longer.

    The old Soviet Union carriers were all ASW carriers never intended for being used as a strike carrier against land targets or as a surface warfare carrier.

    The U.S. Navy might have made a wrong turn many decades ago, neglecting naval surface warfare. All of our surface warships today are designed to protect our carriers (AA & ASW) with a second role of land strikes with Tomahawk cruise missiles with no real surface warfare capabilities. No guns capable of providing NSFS for our Marines ashore or providing naval shore bombardment.

    The Russians never neglected naval surface warfare.

    The question being asked today by those in the maritime community, how will the Chinese use their carriers ? ASW. AA. as a strike platform against land target, naval surface warfare, sea lane control ? Nobody knows right now.
    Last edited by APACHERAT; 11-30-13 at 04:04 PM.

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    Re: China warplanes tail U.S. and Japan fighter jets; How Far Will China Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    As for their navy, it has some decent ships - but again, still no match for the Japanese Aegis-style destroyers (which are basically U.S. Arleigh Burke-class copies, which are America's first line destroyers).
    Those newer Japanese destroyers are more than "decent" they are excellent warships, especially the Kongo class destroyers.

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