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Thread: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Actually... it is far more complicated than that. The Sunni and Shai divide more than often triumphs their problems with the state of Israel. The old saying of the enemy of my enemy is my friend comes to mind. I would not be surprised one bit if Sunni Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq would allow over flight rights to strike Iran. This would of course be done in secret and denied once the attack happened and they would return to their more traditional roles of hating each other, but it has been done before in one way or another.

    Now it would be a mistake for Israel to attack and would finally doom the country. It would do nothing but show the world that Israel is the rogue aggressor nation that most people think it is. It is a bit like the whole NSA scandal.. we all suspected and defacto knew it was happening, but when it was finally confirmed then the **** hit the fan so to say.
    "Most" think that Israel is a rogue aggressor nation? I doubt that your caricature is correct. Some people certainly do feel that way, while more moderate observers admire Israel for its fortitude in the face of some very long odds, historically.

    What they've managed to accomplish in the face of adversity is truly remarkable. I think most sober and educated people can appreciate that.

    Also, you mentioned "**** hitting the fan" over the NSA investigation - I don't agree there either. Yes, the media has talked the issue to death but, at the end of the day, the fallout has truly been minimal. I can't, off the top of my head, think of one person that has been fired over the incident, nor can I put my finger on any new legislation that's occurred as a direct result of the incident.

    In other words, a lot of smoke, but no real substance. We are fundamentally the same country we were before the NSA stuff started to come out.

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    "Most" think that Israel is a rogue aggressor nation? I doubt that your caricature is correct. Some people certainly do feel that way, while more moderate observers admire Israel for its fortitude in the face of some very long odds, historically.
    Yes most do think that Israel is a rogue aggressor nation. Once you move out of the pro-Israeli lobby box in each country, then the actual view of Israel is far different than what you think. People question the way they treat non-Jews and especially Palestinians. People question why Israel can get away with having nukes but Iran can not..Iran has not attacked anyone for hundreds of years, where as Israel has.

    Point is, most people do not unconditionally support Israel and its policies and see Israel as part of the overall problem, not part of the solution. In many of the discussions I have been part of, online and through party politics, the uniform view once you take out the die hard haters and pro-Israeli people, is pretty simple. They blame both sides, and dont understand why the hell they cant figure it out. People are tired of the bs.

    Every time Israel announces new settlement homes, most people groan as they fully know that it is a provocation designed to keep the status quo going. Every time some Palestinian attacks an Israeli they also groan because it is also purely designed as a provocation to keep the status quo going... even though the attack might be a domestic dispute and have no relation to the troubles.

    People are tired of the same old crap and want it fixed.

    What they've managed to accomplish in the face of adversity is truly remarkable. I think most sober and educated people can appreciate that.
    Yes, and most people will acknowledge this.. I do, but you cant just gloss over the bad things Israel has done the last 50 years and say that Israel did it all on its own. You cant go around praising how Israel has grown without mentioning the taboo subjects.

    Also, you mentioned "**** hitting the fan" over the NSA investigation - I don't agree there either. Yes, the media has talked the issue to death but, at the end of the day, the fallout has truly been minimal. I can't, off the top of my head, think of one person that has been fired over the incident, nor can I put my finger on any new legislation that's occurred as a direct result of the incident.

    In other words, a lot of smoke, but no real substance. We are fundamentally the same country we were before the NSA stuff started to come out.
    Very US centric view.. yes you were the same country, but I was not talking about the US, but the world. The point is we suspected it before the revelations.. now we know and can deal with it. It is a bit like a marriage where you suspect your partner is cheating on you, but when you catch the partner in bed with someone else, then you know. That is one hell of a difference.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yes most do think that Israel is a rogue aggressor nation. Once you move out of the pro-Israeli lobby box in each country, then the actual view of Israel is far different than what you think. People question the way they treat non-Jews and especially Palestinians. People question why Israel can get away with having nukes but Iran can not..Iran has not attacked anyone for hundreds of years, where as Israel has.

    Point is, most people do not unconditionally support Israel and its policies and see Israel as part of the overall problem, not part of the solution. In many of the discussions I have been part of, online and through party politics, the uniform view once you take out the die hard haters and pro-Israeli people, is pretty simple. They blame both sides, and dont understand why the hell they cant figure it out. People are tired of the bs.

    Every time Israel announces new settlement homes, most people groan as they fully know that it is a provocation designed to keep the status quo going. Every time some Palestinian attacks an Israeli they also groan because it is also purely designed as a provocation to keep the status quo going... even though the attack might be a domestic dispute and have no relation to the troubles.

    People are tired of the same old crap and want it fixed.
    I can agree that most people would like to see the hostilities in the middle east end, that most people feel it has dragged on for too long, and that most people find the slow pace of progress to be frustrating and, at times, inexplicable.

    That said, I don't think most people take the position that Israel is a rogue aggressor. I think, fundamentally, people acknowledge Israel's right to exist and to defend itself when that existence is threatened. Do they take it too far at times? Perhaps, but I would hardly call them "rogue aggressors." I think their motives are understandable and relatable.

    However, we run in different circles. The European public is notoriously anti-Israeli, whereas the American public is more pro-Israeli (speaking in generalities, of course exceptions abound), so our experiences and our ideas of what "most people" think are naturally going to differ with our differing experiences.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post


    Yes, and most people will acknowledge this.. I do, but you cant just gloss over the bad things Israel has done the last 50 years and say that Israel did it all on its own. You cant go around praising how Israel has grown without mentioning the taboo subjects.
    I think Israel, like most nations, is certainly an appropriate target for criticism. My own country, the United States, is equally deserving of criticism. As is Russia. As is China. As is the EU. As are the many nations of the Middle East.

    I don't think Israel has done anything exceptional in the realm of being offensive that would set it apart from any of the other countries or entities listed. Why single out Israel?


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Very US centric view.. yes you were the same country, but I was not talking about the US, but the world. The point is we suspected it before the revelations.. now we know and can deal with it. It is a bit like a marriage where you suspect your partner is cheating on you, but when you catch the partner in bed with someone else, then you know. That is one hell of a difference.
    Probably true, I am sure the NSA incidents in Germany, for example, harmed the perception of the US in Germany and around Europe. However, to my knowledge no action has been taken.

    Unfortunately, nations spy on each other.

    As I said above, I think it's right to criticize the United States government for this. We as citizens SHOULD criticize our governments when they act out of line, and this is a very good example of where such criticism is warranted and can be quite constructive.

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    They do possess dolphin class Subs and I'm betting there are at least two in the Persian Gulf, also your'e making the assumption that we all know exactly what they're capable of militarily.
    And Iran has subs and it does not change there is not just one target that would have to be attacked. They have nuclear sites all over the country and I doubt their subs are loaded down with bunker busting bombs to begin with.

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Iraq will, and Syria can't do anything about it. And theres still Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, and Jordan.
    Iraq?

    Iran is 90% Shia.

    Iraq is 2/3's Shia and getting closer to Iran every day.

    Forget the Iran/Iraq war...that was when Iraq was run by the Sunni minority.

    There is next to no chance that Iraq will grant Israel permission to fly over their territory to bomb Iran.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ariann...b_1591294.html


    And what does Egypt have to do with it - they are in the opposite direction; unless Israel is planning to attack Iran from the west; going around the world via Egypt. Ummm...doubtful.

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I can agree that most people would like to see the hostilities in the middle east end, that most people feel it has dragged on for too long, and that most people find the slow pace of progress to be frustrating and, at times, inexplicable.

    That said, I don't think most people take the position that Israel is a rogue aggressor. I think, fundamentally, people acknowledge Israel's right to exist and to defend itself when that existence is threatened. Do they take it too far at times? Perhaps, but I would hardly call them "rogue aggressors." I think their motives are understandable and relatable.
    And that is the problem. Israel is suppose to be a free western democracy, that happens to attack its neighbours and occupy areas with population it keeps strict controls on. I cant get into it more out of fear of the moderators, but I suspect you know what I mean but choose to ignore it in your justification of what Israel does.

    However, we run in different circles. The European public is notoriously anti-Israeli, whereas the American public is more pro-Israeli (speaking in generalities, of course exceptions abound), so our experiences and our ideas of what "most people" think are naturally going to differ with our differing experiences.
    The European public is only "notoriously anti-Israeli" in the eyes of the American public and of course the hard line pro-Israeli. The reality is that Europeans get both sides of the story in the media.. we see the terror attacks and the abuses of the Israel government.. the American public does not see the bad things the Israeli government does. Your media are massively pro-Israeli and gloss over most issues that are negative for the state of Israel.

    And that is the difference. When the BBC shows from both sides of the conflict, then it is labelled as anti-Israel. When the BBC and others show IDF troops use human shields, then they are against Israel.... for telling the truth..

    I think Israel, like most nations, is certainly an appropriate target for criticism. My own country, the United States, is equally deserving of criticism. As is Russia. As is China. As is the EU. As are the many nations of the Middle East.
    But in the case of Israel that does not happen, and when people do, then they are labelled anti-Semitic or anti-Israel, which almost automatically kills off any debate. Israel has for 40 years had nuclear weapons and nothing has been done about it. Iran or another country wanting nuclear power, and all hell breaks loose and sanctions go flying. Come on.. It is no wonder that people around the world see a massive double standard when it comes to Israel.

    I don't think Israel has done anything exceptional in the realm of being offensive that would set it apart from any of the other countries or entities listed. Why single out Israel?
    Because Israel gets away with things that other countries do not. There is a clear double standard. Look at the whole nuclear weapons situation. Iran and the arab world has a very valid point. Why cant they get nukes when Israel has them? Why does Iran have to bow to UN inspections and sanctions because it might want nukes, when Israel who has nukes gets off scot free?

    Probably true, I am sure the NSA incidents in Germany, for example, harmed the perception of the US in Germany and around Europe. However, to my knowledge no action has been taken.
    Oh it has, governments have cancelled intelligence deals and all sorts of deals are on the chopping board. The EU-US trade deal and other arrangements are on the tipping point.

    Unfortunately, nations spy on each other.
    Yes, and normally you dont get caught on such a massive scale. The problem is not the spying, but the scale and getting caught.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    It makes sense that Netanyahu would say that. The Israeli position is *zero* Iranian nuclear program. Anything more than zero needs killin', which the Israelis are proficient at. They've destroyed nuclear facilities in both Iraq and Syria previously, so it'd make perfect sense from their perspective that the Iranians don't get their cake either.

    Whether or not they will, I've been anticipating an Israeli attack on Iran for years now. I don't know if they have the necessary equipment to pull it off though - the best bunker-busters on the planet, which mind you, some say might not be good enough to get the job done anyway.

    Mornin Jango. But what deal did we really get. Everything Kerry said was a crock. The Iranians say they will stop enriching to a certain level. So they still will be enriching. There wont be any dismantling of the Iranian Nuclear Program. The Iranians aren't going to let sanctions prevent them.

    What is the real reason behind easing off sanctions? Myself I think it is due to the EU or most of Europe needing that Iranian Oil. Especially the P.I.G.S. and France. Again, the French have Billions tied up all due to these sanctions. It would stand to reason so do others in Europe. So that is just one of the main reasons I can see them doing this.

    Now we have discovered Team Obama has been in secret negotiates with Iran for at least 6 months. Conducted in Oman.

    Do you think Obama should have told someone in the US that he was in these Secret negotiations with Iran? As this goes back before their newly Elected Alleged moderate leader came about.

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"


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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And that is the problem. Israel is suppose to be a free western democracy, that happens to attack its neighbours and occupy areas with population it keeps strict controls on. I cant get into it more out of fear of the moderators, but I suspect you know what I mean but choose to ignore it in your justification of what Israel does.



    The European public is only "notoriously anti-Israeli" in the eyes of the American public and of course the hard line pro-Israeli. The reality is that Europeans get both sides of the story in the media.. we see the terror attacks and the abuses of the Israel government.. the American public does not see the bad things the Israeli government does. Your media are massively pro-Israeli and gloss over most issues that are negative for the state of Israel.

    And that is the difference. When the BBC shows from both sides of the conflict, then it is labelled as anti-Israel. When the BBC and others show IDF troops use human shields, then they are against Israel.... for telling the truth..



    But in the case of Israel that does not happen, and when people do, then they are labelled anti-Semitic or anti-Israel, which almost automatically kills off any debate. Israel has for 40 years had nuclear weapons and nothing has been done about it. Iran or another country wanting nuclear power, and all hell breaks loose and sanctions go flying. Come on.. It is no wonder that people around the world see a massive double standard when it comes to Israel.
    I'd ask you to consider the role demographics might play as well. The United States and Britain have large and influential Jewish populations, Europe has a large and very vocal Muslim population. Perhaps that partially explains the media slant in each country.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Because Israel gets away with things that other countries do not. There is a clear double standard. Look at the whole nuclear weapons situation. Iran and the arab world has a very valid point. Why cant they get nukes when Israel has them? Why does Iran have to bow to UN inspections and sanctions because it might want nukes, when Israel who has nukes gets off scot free?
    We're not talking about passing candy out to kids. "Mommy why can't I have what Johnnie has" isn't at play here. We're talking about nuclear ****ing weapons. Nations are not entitled to nukes. It's not a right.

    Iran doesn't have the track record that would support the global community allowing them to have nuclear weapons. Would you feel safer in a world with a nuclear Iran? European, Russian and American policy makers agree on that one - we merely differ on how we should arrive at that end. Nobody but the most radical among us believes that a nuclear Iran is an acceptable outcome.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Oh it has, governments have cancelled intelligence deals and all sorts of deals are on the chopping board. The EU-US trade deal and other arrangements are on the tipping point.

    Yes, and normally you dont get caught on such a massive scale. The problem is not the spying, but the scale and getting caught.
    I wasn't even aware of a EU-US trade deal in the works, but I'm certain it won't be canceled as any trade deal would be as beneficial to Europe as it would to the US.... or you wouldn't make the deal to begin with.

    I'm telling you Pete, nothing is going to come of it. The US caught China spying on us several times last year, and even the big bad USA didn't do diddly squat about it. Nada. So I don't expect Europe to do much more than huff and puff and blow a little smoke around for public consumption. The higher-ups don't care. Spying is totally commonplace, and that's unfortunate.

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    Re: Israel calls Iran Nuclear deal a "historic mistake"

    me thinks Saudi Arabia is seeing this as a loss of US exclusive alliance with the Sunni's.
    Afterall, we have armed up ( and trained) so called moderates in Syria thru Jordan.

    The Islamic Front alliance the other day; I beileve it excludes pro-west Free Syrain Army and such It's getting very complicated..

    The groups include the powerful Ahrar al-Sham, the Tawhid Brigades and Suqour al-Sham.

    The spokesman also said the Islamic Front wouldn’t have relations with the Western-backed Syrian National Coalition. That coalition has seen its influence erode as rebels move away from the Turkish-based group toward generous donors from the Persian Gulf.

    Powerful rebel groups in Syria announce creation of umbrella alliance | The Japan Times
    as to the Shi'a/ Sunni schism, well too bad. We need to stop the exclusive alliance with the AQ wannabes ( Sunni ), and just consider Hezbollah, and Iran as natural enemies.

    They aren't necessarily; meaning we need to re-align to a more neutral status.

    I'm not sure what the Gulf states think yet; we need to keep them happy (Bharain, UAE, Qatar), but need to not be on a constant reactive status,
    will all the Shi'as.

    Israel has our 'special relationship", so they can kvetch all they want to, nothing changes there.
    Oṃ maṇi padme hūṃ

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