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US, Iran nuclear deal spurs bipartisan concern in Congress

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

This is, of course, the rationale used for time immemorial to justify capitulating to tyrants. In the real world the US Administration has every interest in maintaining the appearance that their peace gambit worked for political reasons and will be unwilling to admit that their opposition was correct about Iran all along when (not if) Iran breaks the deal. The administration will carry on this charade for as long as possible claiming they brought peace when, in the end, all they have done is embolden the bloodthirsty Iranian leadership.
And, if the Obama administration fails to reinforce the vacated sanctions, then I will be the first to say that they are wrong for doing it and screwed the pooch. However, right now, the onus is on Iran. If they follow the agreement to the law, and I realize that's a big if, then we extend the deal another time period. So on, so forth. You act as if Iran has been given a blank check and the ability to run wild. That's not the case. Very few of the sanctions leveled against them have been removed and, according to the POTUS, will be reinstated if they violate the agreement. I realize that trusting Pres Obama and Iran is probably futile. But Im willing to give it a shot.
All Iran is doing is using the same playbook used by North Korea during it's run up to nuclear weapons. They claim they want peace, get billions of dollars in frozen assets and aid in an agreement to stop the weapons program, and then use that money to accelerate their nuclear weapon program. Wash, rinse, repeat until the weapon is created.
And look what it got them. No one supports them at all, they are isolated and won't hold out forever with the way they live, and they had one friggin weapon that couldn't reach us anyway. Also, looks like South Korea (who would be the equivalent of Israel in this situation) is doing fine.
If this "thing is screwed up" it wouldn't be our troops in Afghanistan that would be the target. What would follow the creation of the weapon would be a systematic takeover of the middle East by Iran under threat of nuclear annihilation of the surrounding states. This has always been the goal of the Iranian leadership. We know this because this is what the Iranian leadership says it wants. They seek the reestablishment of the Caliphate.
Yes, one small nuke (which is what they would have) would equal the take over of Iraq, Saudi, etc. Gimme a break man. You act as if they will have the arsenal we have in 6 months or something.
The reason for the Iranian uprising in the 1960s and 70s was not due to our meddling in Iran, if anything the revolution was delayed a few decades by our meddling. The Iranian Revolution was sparked by the Shah's plan to grant legal status and voting rights to minorities and women. The Ayatollah spun up a revolution in the country on the grounds that this moderation and secularism was a direct threat to Islam and that the state needed to be overthrown and replaced with a theocracy, which is what they did. It's no surprise that in the months leading up to the toppling of the SHah that the approval rating of the Shah was on the rise given the Ayatollah as the alternative. What Carter's Secretary of State did at that point borders on criminal negligence.

I would suggest you read a good deal more history of the Iranian revolution than you appear to have done thus far. Your "meddling for oil" understanding of what happened in Iran in the 50s 60s and 70s indicate a critical absence of key details in your evaluation of the events. The Shah was supported by the US as a counter to the rising trend towards Islamic radicalism in the Iranian state. The end result of a brutal theocracy in Iran was due to bungling by the State Department under Jimmy Carter that is eerily similar to the events unfolding in Egypt and Iran today.
It's plain and simple. Not all of the cultural crap you bring up. Iran sought to nationalize their oil in the 50's. That's where all of this other stuff started up. The Brits, nor the US, liked that because oil prices would rise. So, we overthrew the gov't attempting to do this. That's it. Heck BP contributed money to the bribing of their officials. What more do you need to see that will show that this was nothing more than an attempt at controlling oil? I suggest you stop sensationalizing a simple black and white situation.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

and that Australia is "Britain's scrotum"? C'mon.

Yeah, that I think is pretty much unique to him.
 
I'm confused too. I thought its the US GOP leadership who thinks a messianic figure will arise (the anti-Christ) and lead us into a world ending war and The Rapture.

No. The idea that that is driving GOP Foreign policy is a smear, similar to the claim on the right that Obama does what he does because he's a secret Muslim who hates America. The idea that that drives a significant portion of the Iranian government is called "believing them when they tell us that it is".
 
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No. The idea that that is driving GOP Foreign policy is a smear, similar to the claim on the right that Obama does what he does because he's a secret Muslim who hates America.

Well, I think its a little closer to the truth than not. You can't deny a good chunk of the GOP base are evangelicals who think EXACTLY that way. Their fervent support of Israel is strongly influenced by 'end times' theology. And their GOP leaders aren't shy about pandering for their votes.

You see politicians echoing this or outright saying it all the time. Look at Michelle Bachmann and a few of the other reps in the House. I recall the Bush administration having several people in significant positions who were Liberty University graduates.
 
One other point of consideration is that from the standpoint of wanting to hold Iran accountable and make the possibility of a more aggressive sanctions regimen or even military activity possible this deal lays good groundwork for that. Iran has relied heavily on arguments of positive intentions and ambiguity in the NPT regarding the right of enrichment vs. proliferation concerns. For the first time Iran has spelled out exactly what it sees its international commitments as and bound itself to following through on them. If these lines are egregiously crossed in the future I think it may be much easier to bring pressure to bear on them because they have put themselves on the line. Though as ever this all depends on how things look in six months time.
 
Well, I think its a little closer to the truth than not.

No, it is not. You will not identify a single American conservative program or policy that is fueled by that belief system.

You are mistaking "Conservative Christians" for "people who shape foreign policy with the desire of bringing about the Apocalypse".
 
No, it is not. You will not identify a single American conservative program or policy that is fueled by that belief system.

You are mistaking "Conservative Christians" for "people who shape foreign policy with the desire of bringing about the Apocalypse".

Oh. So you're saying they are just pandering to the main constituency they have. Because people like Palin believe this stuff.

http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2009/11/sarah-palin-and-the-rapture/30587/

And the sucking up to guys like Rev. Hagee clearly is influencing voters, which influences politicians, who direct FP,

So your false equivalency of the Obama Commie Muslim thing is just wrong.

My thoughts are based upon a basic truth, your example is based on a basic lie.
 
Oh. So you're saying they are just pandering to the main constituency they have.

No. I am saying that Iranian religious conservatives really do believe that they have been blessed with the special authority to reorder their religion in order to politically prepare the ground for the coming of the Mahdi, and that key elements of their national decision-making and foreign policy hierarchies explicitly direct their actions towards this goal.

That is no the same as "pandering". Pandering is when you throw out some red meat to keep a base whom you may or may not really agree with off your back or in your corner. Pandering =/= POLICY.

So your false equivalency of the Obama Commie Muslim thing is just wrong.

My thoughts are based upon a basic truth, your example is based on a basic lie.

My thoughts are based on actually having even a passing familiarity with what the **** I am talking about. Your accusations here appear to be built on a strawman that allows you to feel intellectually superior to those with whom you disagree (although the joke is really on you if you have to create strawmen positions in order to feel intellectually superior to your opposition), but that lack any kind of actual demonstration.

There is no American equivalent of Qods Force. There is no American Equivalent of the IRGC. There is no American Equivalent of Esmat. No American subjugation of political law to Eschatology. Even the most fervent believer in the City on a Hill does not preach Istishhad to achieve that City. No one in the American political establishment is actually actively trying to figure out how to trigger the End Times.
 
No. I am saying that Iranian religious conservatives really do believe that they have been blessed with the special authority to reorder their religion in order to politically prepare the ground for the coming of the Mahdi, and that key elements of their national decision-making and foreign policy hierarchies explicitly direct their actions towards this goal.

That is no the same as "pandering". Pandering is when you throw out some red meat to keep a base whom you may or may not really agree with off your back or in your corner. Pandering =/= POLICY.



My thoughts are based on actually having even a passing familiarity with what the **** I am talking about. Your accusations here appear to be built on a strawman that allows you to feel intellectually superior to those with whom you disagree (although the joke is really on you if you have to create strawmen positions in order to feel intellectually superior to your opposition), but that lack any kind of actual demonstration.

There is no American equivalent of Qods Force. There is no American Equivalent of the IRGC. There is no American Equivalent of Esmat. No American subjugation of political law to Eschatology. Even the most fervent believer in the City on a Hill does not preach Istishhad to achieve that City. No one in the American political establishment is actually actively trying to figure out how to trigger the End Times.

I was addressing your comment that the GOP and the End Times concept is the same as saying Obama is a Muslim whatever you said.

I agree, Iran is certainly crazy religious. But we can't do a whole lot about that.

But I think the GOP is infected with the same big, just a milder version. And we CAN be aware of this and actively fight it.

No one is actively promoting triggering the End Times, but they're sure OK if it seems to go that way. The scariest example is the thought that Israel and US policy need to be the same (remember- no daylight between us!). This is promoted heavily among evangelicals, and certainly influences those in power.
 
Over the years I have mostly believed that the only thing Muslim about Obama but I am beginning to change my mind on the. He does and says to many things that make me wonder. I truly believe he has no love for Israel and If Iran drove them into the sea he could care less.
 
Over the years I have mostly believed that the only thing Muslim about Obama but I am beginning to change my mind on the. He does and says to many things that make me wonder. I truly believe he has no love for Israel and If Iran drove them into the sea he could care less.

Of course you do.
 
I was addressing your comment that the GOP and the End Times concept is the same as saying Obama is a Muslim whatever you said.

Yup. In both cases you are ascribing to people intentions and a priori assumptions that they do not hold, based off of your desire to paint them in a negative light.

I agree, Iran is certainly crazy religious. But we can't do a whole lot about that.

No. But we can keep them from being crazy religious and having the Bomb.

But I think the GOP is infected with the same big, just a milder version. And we CAN be aware of this and actively fight it.

No one is actively promoting triggering the End Times, but they're sure OK if it seems to go that way.

:shrug: if God wants to end it, it's His call. Christians naturally try to be willing to accept His will in our lives. That is a whole helluva lot different than us deciding (for example) that in order for Christ to come back and initiate Paradise On Earth we need to wipe out Islam.

The scariest example is the thought that Israel and US policy need to be the same (remember- no daylight between us!). This is promoted heavily among evangelicals, and certainly influences those in power.

:doh That's not rooted in Revelations: it's rooted in Genesis.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Yeah, that I think is pretty much unique to him.

It's one thing to think you live in the greatest country in the world, be proud of your homeland, and all that, but to insult other nations because they're not yours is just arrogant. You hear it a lot from Americans: "Eurosocialists" "French surrender monkeys" etc.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

It's one thing to think you live in the greatest country in the world, be proud of your homeland, and all that, but to insult other nations because they're not yours is just arrogant. You hear it a lot from Americans: "Eurosocialists" "French surrender monkeys" etc.


1. The French are Surrender Monkeys. Saying that they are Surrender Monkeys is like saying that Americans are fat. They only get upset because it's true.

2. Other than the French, other western nations absolutely do not deserved to be blamed for the fact that they are not America. Agreed.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Shew! Good thing Iranian leadership is composed of nothing but fanatical Islamists then!

In Islam the only city that can't be destroyed is Mecca, but that is because they believe that Allah is protecting Mecca from destruction.

Then we should nuke it and see what happens.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

I agree. I seem to recall a deal that Clinton made with North Korea, was it turn off your nuke plants and we'll give you food and oil? Yeah, I think that was it. The North Korean's turned up their nukes before the last shipment even made it to them.

I suspect a similar outcome here.

Agreed. It was hard to accept when I came to the realization-but liberals done CARE if Iran gets nukes. They think any nation should have the right. They dont like Israel. They dont want to appear prejudicial (as if Iran is a bad actor by any measure). And they hate the US for having nukes, and having used them.

Its more about hating the US than anything else, frankly-and many libs will admit it. Its how they roll.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

The above does not in any way represent the opinions of mainstream Americans. The poster is speaking only for himself. Most of us, in fact, are embarrassed by this elitist attitude.

It KILLS liberals to say they are proud of their country (because they aren't). We are just part of the herd, and liberals are herd animals.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

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The point is that liberals cant STAND the truth-that american is exceptional by every measure-and still the place where people who can vote with their feet come to from every else. Not even ancient Greece, or Rome, or the Chinese dynasties came close to the US.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

This is, of course, the rationale used for time immemorial to justify capitulating to tyrants. In the real world the US Administration has every interest in maintaining the appearance that their peace gambit worked for political reasons and will be unwilling to admit that their opposition was correct about Iran all along when (not if) Iran breaks the deal. The administration will carry on this charade for as long as possible claiming they brought peace when, in the end, all they have done is embolden the bloodthirsty Iranian leadership.

All Iran is doing is using the same playbook used by North Korea during it's run up to nuclear weapons. They claim they want peace, get billions of dollars in frozen assets and aid in an agreement to stop the weapons program, and then use that money to accelerate their nuclear weapon program. Wash, rinse, repeat until the weapon is created.



If this "thing is screwed up" it wouldn't be our troops in Afghanistan that would be the target. What would follow the creation of the weapon would be a systematic takeover of the middle East by Iran under threat of nuclear annihilation of the surrounding states. This has always been the goal of the Iranian leadership. We know this because this is what the Iranian leadership says it wants. They seek the reestablishment of the Caliphate.




The reason for the Iranian uprising in the 1960s and 70s was not due to our meddling in Iran, if anything the revolution was delayed a few decades by our meddling. The Iranian Revolution was sparked by the Shah's plan to grant legal status and voting rights to minorities and women. The Ayatollah spun up a revolution in the country on the grounds that this moderation and secularism was a direct threat to Islam and that the state needed to be overthrown and replaced with a theocracy, which is what they did. It's no surprise that in the months leading up to the toppling of the SHah that the approval rating of the Shah was on the rise given the Ayatollah as the alternative. What Carter's Secretary of State did at that point borders on criminal negligence.

I would suggest you read a good deal more history of the Iranian revolution than you appear to have done thus far. Your "meddling for oil" understanding of what happened in Iran in the 50s 60s and 70s indicate a critical absence of key details in your evaluation of the events. The Shah was supported by the US as a counter to the rising trend towards Islamic radicalism in the Iranian state. The end result of a brutal theocracy in Iran was due to bungling by the State Department under Jimmy Carter that is eerily similar to the events unfolding in Egypt and Iran today.

Outstanding quotes that add actual context and insight into the Islamic republic.

The line from the left is "american butted in for oil n stuff".
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

The point is that liberals cant STAND the truth-that american is exceptional by every measure-and still the place where people who can vote with their feet come to from every else. Not even ancient Greece, or Rome, or the Chinese dynasties came close to the US.

Exceptional by every measure? So... exceptionally obese, exceptionally depressed, exceptionally uneducated....

I do believe the US is a great country, even the greatest and is unique among the other countries. But it's not heaven, and we're sure as hell not perfect.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

how can any country claim to follow the faith of Islam and say that they would be willing to destroy Jerusalem if it destroys isreal.

Jerusalem is the holy city of holy city's: Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have a sacred building or connection with the city. to destroy Jerusalem would enrage every devout christian, Jewish, and Muslim citizen of every country.

Its not the holiest city in any branch of islam. Various sects destroy ancient mosques like its cool. They see things different.
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Read your post again and realize how self defeating it is.
Apparently

+

+

+

=

So in other words, we know all of that but we don't really have the capability to detect what they're doing.

Thats quite a set of assumptions. Im sure there we have some people there, as does israel-but the problem is the system is secret, diffuse, and VERY few know what the big picture is. This is why a strike is quite different here vs Syria or Iraq.
 
Over the years I have mostly believed that the only thing Muslim about Obama but I am beginning to change my mind on the. He does and says to many things that make me wonder. I truly believe he has no love for Israel and If Iran drove them into the sea he could care less.

I dont think its because he's muslim-its because he's liberal. Liberals can't stand Israel-often even Jewish liberals. :/
 
Re: BREAKING NEWS: Iran, 6 world powers reach deal on Iranian nuclear program

Exceptional by every measure? So... exceptionally obese, exceptionally depressed, exceptionally uneducated....

I do believe the US is a great country, even the greatest and is unique among the other countries. But it's not heaven, and we're sure as hell not perfect.


I already broke it down. Economically, Culturally, Militarily, and Governmental. We are not exceptionally uneducated-though keeping in mind we have a much wider spectrum of people from ALL cultures (not homogeneous), and considering that our poor are fat, with a car, tv, phone, etc even that is an indicator of success. I never said its heaven or we are perfect, and we wont ever get to either-we just get closer than anyone else.
 
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