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Thread: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratrooper View Post
    Thats the thing though, I don't believe anyone said women should not be in the military or are not an asset. We just believe that they are not suited for COMBAT ARMS
    Every job in the military provides a useful function that helps the entire machine. Almost all of those jobs are open to women and they do just fine at them.

    Infantry and Special Operations specifically are VERY PHYSICAL

    I have already provided research from the Army that shows women are more prone to injury than men (even in basic training)
    Attachment 67157392

    http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/borden/...2-4a518be998f7

    Many combat vets have given their opinions and they just happen to be supported by military doctors.
    Of course, that's not the point I'm arguing at all. I never claimed that the strongest woman was as strong as the strongest man. I am saying that there are certain cases where a particular woman may be stronger than a particular man and that if the woman can pass the same physical fitness test as the men, then I don't see any reason why she should not be able to serve to any capability she wishes, just as the men can.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Why aren't you guys raging about how physical standards are different for service members based on age? What aren't you raging that if an older service member can't meet the same standards as younger men, THEY WILL GET PEOPLE KILLED!

    Age discrimination in physical standards WILL GET PEOPLE KILLED!!!! Lower standards for older men in the military has caused huge numbers of casualties and will ultimately cause the USA to be invaded and defeated! Damn liberals!!!

    The Maximum PFT for an 18 year old male in the Marine Corps is:

    20 Dead-Hang pullups
    100 Crunches in two minutes
    18:00 Three Mile Run

    The Maximum PFT for a 30 year old male in the Marine Corps is:

    20 Dead Hang pullups
    100 Crunches in two minutes
    18:00 Three Mile Run


    The Maximum PFT for a 45 year old male in the Marine Corps is:

    20 Dead Hang pullups
    100 Crunches in two minutes
    18:00 Three Mile Run

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The CIC has replaced general officers that disagree, so you lost that argument before you started it.
    Could you be a little more specific? Disagree with what exactly?

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Of course, that's not the point I'm arguing at all. I never claimed that the strongest woman was as strong as the strongest man. I am saying that there are certain cases where a particular woman may be stronger than a particular man and that if the woman can pass the same physical fitness test as the men, then I don't see any reason why she should not be able to serve to any capability she wishes, just as the men can.
    What he's pointing out is that even if they pass the initial standards, they are more likely to break on deployment.

    ...The Marine Corps Times recently published a handful of articles in regard to opening Infantry Officer Course (IOC) to females and the possibility of integrating women into the infantry community. In mid-April the Commandant directed the “integration” of the first wave of female officers into IOC this summer following completion of The Basic School (TBS). This action may or may not pave the way for female Marines to serve in the infantry as the results remain to be seen. However, before the Marine Corps moves forward with this concept, should we not ask the hard questions and gain opinions of combat-experienced Marines (male and female alike) as to the purpose, the impact, and the gains from such a move? As a combat-experienced Marine officer, and a female, I am here to tell you that we are not all created equal, and attempting to place females in the infantry will not improve the Marine Corps as the Nation’s force-in-readiness or improve our national security....
    Mind you, this woman is probably a misogynist who is full of nonsense and faking her service

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    Why would you be so "sure"? Once a general pins on his second star, he's as much if not more politician than soldier. Presidents don't fire Col's.

    And finally you own up to the fact that there will be problems. Good. But do you really think it's worth lives of our soldiers because of these problems that could be completely avoided?
    Because they don't want to lose wars. I don't see it being a danger to anyone's life. These people are supposed to NOT be having relationships. Those that do (which I still haven't seen any kind of statistical data on) should be disciplined.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    What he's pointing out is that even if they pass the initial standards, they are more likely to break on deployment.



    Mind you, this woman is probably a misogynist who is full of nonsense and faking her service
    That is irrelevant. This woman cannot speak for every other woman! So it was too much for HER. She can only speak for herself.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Could you be a little more specific? Disagree with what exactly?
    there have been multiple incidences throughout history. General Shinseki, for example, was sidelined for disagreeing with the administration's estimates of required troop-strength for Operation Iraqi Freedom. General Waldhauser was fired because he didn't bow to undue command influence to "crush" some snipers under his command who had taken idiotic pictures of themselves peeing on dead taliban. The current Joint Chiefs were selected in part due to their willingness to enable the Administrations' ending of Don't Ask Don't Tell. The current Commandant of the Marine Corps was chosen because he was a political creature who had no infantry experience to fall back on. General Mattis was quietly told to retire because the whole "killing people" meme of his leadership wasn't cuddly and friendly enough for the post-war military. General Baker, General Ham, and Admiral Gaouette were all mysteriously "retired" very suddenly after the debacle at Benghazi - they respectively were the CJTF-HOA, AFRICOM, and the Med CST commander at the time; debate goes back and forth between those who say that their firings are unrelated (for example, Adm Gaouette made two "racially insensitive comments"), and those who point out that that is pretty weak sauce compared to what is usually required to fire a Flag Officer. Accounts have trickled out that there was... significant disagreement between the military commanders on the ground and the administration over the proper response to an embassy coming under attack.

    If you disagree with the Administration, you simply won't be put into the top billets to begin with (the Obama administration ran it's Joint Chiefs' nominees, for example, by David Axelrod of all people), or, if you are dumb enough to stick out and say so, are likely to be fired, retired, or otherwise shunted aside. General Officers do not get to disagree with the President in Public and retain their position and prestige Part of the whole civilian-control-of-the-military thing.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That's an interesting claim. Are you telling me that you were fully aware of the personal experiences of the multiple veterans on this forum before they told them to you?
    Please, this stuff is par for the course with you super conservative traditionalists. It's not surprising to see many of you having this opinion. It's NOTHING new.

    That is not correct. What I stated was that A) we have presented statistical evidence supporting those portions of our claims that can be quantified and that B) non-quantifiable measures such as team cohesion and whether or not groups fall apart into cliques aren't collected on statistically.
    I'm asking on statistics where there have been reported altercations or what not between female and male military members, and how often they occur in relation to how many are enlisted. Of course, we are ALWAYS going to have some behavioral issues.

    If it was just my own personal experiences you would have a point. But you have had multiple people describe the same reality to you - and you blithely dismiss them all as nonsense based on no evidence or experience whatsoever.

    I wouldn't tell a pro-football player what being on a professional football team is like, I wouldn't tell a computer programmer what programming is like, and perhaps you should think before you try to tell infantrymen what being in the infantry is like.
    Good Lord! These are people on an internet forum. I don't know anything about them.

    Yeah. See that part above, in the section that you quoted, where I pointed out that in fact we had provided some statistics and you had ignored them? Yeah. That.
    I didn't ignore them. I honestly haven't seen you post the stats I specifically requested. If you would be so kind as to repost them, that would be great, and thank you in advance.



    It is a FACT that the mixed gender units have constant trouble in deployments due to the presence of sexual tension in their ranks.
    It is a FACT that this is universally understood throughout the military as any other part of our sub-culture; because it is the universal experience.
    It is a FACT that the problem in Iraq got so bad that they had to threaten to court-martial anyone who got or got anyone else pregnant, due to the losses involved.
    It is a FACT that unintended pregnancy is significantly higher in the military than in the civilian world.
    It is a FACT that females who become pregnant are non-deployable, representing a loss of combat power to the unit involved.
    It is a FACT that combat replacements are not authorized for individual losses, but only once a unit reaches a certain casualty level.
    ...and so on and so on and so on and so forth. What we have given you here are facts, not crap we made up.

    Oh... and the direct personal observation of these trends that you keep dismissing are also FACTS.
    Lol! No, they aren't facts unless they are supported by EVIDENCE. Personal observations are NOT facts. LOL!

    It is a FACT that the people who are actually in a position where they would know are saying that these changes would endanger their lives. Just as it is a FACT that you thus far you have preferred to ignore or deride them than have to question your preferences.
    None of these things are FACTS. Sorry.

    No. I think you are a smart woman who is acting stupidly because she does not like the implications of the evidence of a subject about which she had a formed opinion that was built on very little basis.
    My opinions (which I don't deny, they are opinions) are based upon knowing that some females are most certainly capable of doing jobs that men do, and to stop them from doing what they want because of the fact that they are female is really nothing but gender discrimination if you really think about it. It's not their fault they were born females, and it's not their fault if the men can't control themselves. If the woman is acting in an insubordinate way with the men, then she should be punished as well.



    You have accused us of lying, of being misogynists, suggested that we are faking our military experience, and dismissed our hard-won experience as "nonsense" in order to avoid having to deal with it. You have explicitly and deliberately sought to discredit the veterans who have opened up to you in this thread because you did not like what they had to say.
    I never suggested you faked anything. I simply don't know you, don't know anything about any of you people actually, and this is the internet. I'm not a newcomer.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That is irrelevant. This woman cannot speak for every other woman! So it was too much for HER. She can only speak for herself.
    yeah. "Every other woman" was covered in those statistics about the physical breakdowns that she addresses and that you continue to ignore.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Seriously, if it were going to be THAT big a problem, I'm sure the military bigwigs would be doing more to oppose this. They don't WANT to lose wars, and that's basically what you guys are saying. That allowing women into combat roles in the military, EVEN if they are physically able to compete with men on a strength basis, that they would just destroy our military. I think that is pure hyperbole. Not that there would NEVER be problems, of course there would be sometimes, but I don't think it's as grave an issue as some of you are making it out to be. Some of you just don't trust women I think.
    Military bigwigs are nothing more than politicians in uniforms. Their positions, especially at the Joint Chiefs level, must be approved by civilian authority. They know they must toe the line to stay there. A perfect example is the General in Afghanistan who didn't punish the Marine Corps snipers who urinated on dead Taliban. He didn't punish them according to the wishes of the Commandant and civilian leadership, so he was relieved of command.
    If this was looked at from a strictly tactical and practical stand point, women wouldn't even be considered. They require too many specialized facilities and supplies, the fact that most of them can't pull their own weight, and the disciplinary factors that come with it would make it very unpopular. It's the political factors that even get this debate a minute on the floor of Congress. Who, by the way, I don't think should be involved in this situation to begin with. This should be the President's call. He is the Commander and Chief. Period. The Congress's only authority involving us should be to send or not to send us to war, for obvious reasons, and they gave that away so screw 'em.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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