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Thread: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I don't believe what you wrote was the absolute rule during all of the Iraq and Afghanistan era. For a while the military had a deep shortage and had dramatically reduced enlistment requirements and how many they slide thru boot camp. This was particularly true for the Marines. They didn't have enough to go around and re-enlistments were falling thru the floor. I don't know why but the oppressive heat while wearing body armor may have had something to do with that.
    Actually it was particularly true of the Army. Enlistment requirements were not "dramatically" reduced, but we expanded the number of waivers we authorized. And yes. The fact that you would never be assigned to be a rifle squad leader in a fleet unit directly out of boot camp was indeed an absolute rule that existed before, during, and after Iraq. We also never authorized fighter pilots to fly combat missions without attending flight school.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I'm sorry, but given our past discussions and my being aware of how you view women in your "traditional" viewpoints, I can't take your argument seriously as I know how biased you are about women in general, never mind them being in a "man's role."
    So... ad hominem? Reality doesn't matter because the person who is identifying it to you is a mean old sexist?

    You are just wrong if you think that there aren't women out there who are more than able to carry out their duties as soldiers. ALL men who are in the military are NOT big and strong or tough psychologically either.
    You are creating a strawman. No one is saying there aren't tough women, and no one is saying all men are tough.


    Cmon, Chris. You are smarter than this. I have seen you be smarter than this.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So... ad hominem? Reality doesn't matter because the person who is identifying it to you is a mean old sexist?
    Even though I have about 10 years on him, yes of course! He isn't too mean though. He's a very nice person. LOL! You have to take into consideration a person's biases, and he has plenty!


    You are creating a strawman. No one is saying there aren't tough women, and no one is saying all men are tough.
    Some people are saying that. Also, what you are saying is that basically women are this HUGE problem because they cause all of this strife and conflict within their units. If this is so common, I'm sure that you could find SOME source to back your claims. There MUST be statistics out there about this type of thing, sexual harassment stats, etc., so don't go tell me this is just "personal experience." That doesn't float around here, and you should know better.


    Cmon, Chris. You are smarter than this. I have seen you be smarter than this.
    Really? Seriously though, I don't think I'm being stupid just because I don't think this is as big a problem as you claim without backing it with any kind of data at all except for personal anecdotes.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Yes, I already acknowledged that the material cannot be sold on military bases. The soldiers CAN buy it themselves off base and possess it though.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Even though I have about 10 years on him, yes of course! He isn't too mean though. He's a very nice person. LOL! You have to take into consideration a person's biases, and he has plenty!
    to be human is to have biases. For example, in this thread you have demonstrated confirmation bias - disregarding new information that did not fit your preconceived thesis.

    Some people are saying that. Also, what you are saying is that basically women are this HUGE problem because they cause all of this strife and conflict within their units. If this is so common, I'm sure that you could find SOME source to back your claims. There MUST be statistics out there about this type of thing, sexual harassment stats, etc., so don't go tell me this is just "personal experience." That doesn't float around here, and you should know better.
    The main source of evidence that we have presented is our own direct experience. We have also provided statistics to you - you ignored them. Sexual Harrassment stats.... I'm not sure how that would really have direct effect. There are poor stats about people forming cliques and destroying team cohesion due to bickering over sexual relationships for the simple reason that A) it is usually illegal, and so nobody is willing to self-report and B) no one gathers statistics on it. But the experience that I and others have shared with you (that those sorts of problems are nigh-on universal in the mixed-gender units) is pretty much the common standard.

    Really? Seriously though, I don't think I'm being stupid just because I don't think this is as big a problem as you claim without backing it with any kind of data at all except for personal anecdotes.
    No. You are acting stupid because you are choosing to attack people for disagreeing with you and disregard the hard-won experience of those who actually know what they are talking about when they discuss how the modern infantry functions.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    to be human is to have biases. For example, in this thread you have demonstrated confirmation bias - disregarding new information that did not fit your preconceived thesis.
    You haven't come up with any "new" information though. Lol! You yourself have stated that there just isn't enough information to go on below, so you cannot make definitive statements about it, can you?

    The main source of evidence that we have presented is our own direct experience. We have also provided statistics to you - you ignored them. Sexual Harrassment stats.... I'm not sure how that would really have direct effect. There are poor stats about people forming cliques and destroying team cohesion due to bickering over sexual relationships for the simple reason that A) it is usually illegal, and so nobody is willing to self-report and B) no one gathers statistics on it. But the experience that I and others have shared with you (that those sorts of problems are nigh-on universal in the mixed-gender units) is pretty much the common standard.
    Of course you realize that your own personal experiences are not necessarily (or even likely for that matter) to be a representation of the whole. I'm glad to see you acknowledge that there are really no statistics to confirm or negate your claims, so that makes this more of your own personal opinion based upon your own personal experiences as opposed to an actual FACT.



    No. You are acting stupid because you are choosing to attack people for disagreeing with you and disregard the hard-won experience of those who actually know what they are talking about when they discuss how the modern infantry functions.
    No? You think I'm stupid?

    I haven't attacked anyone. If you think you've been attacked by me, you don't know me very well.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Even though I have about 10 years on him, yes of course! He isn't too mean though. He's a very nice person. LOL! You have to take into consideration a person's biases, and he has plenty!




    Some people are saying that. Also, what you are saying is that basically women are this HUGE problem because they cause all of this strife and conflict within their units. If this is so common, I'm sure that you could find SOME source to back your claims. There MUST be statistics out there about this type of thing, sexual harassment stats, etc., so don't go tell me this is just "personal experience." That doesn't float around here, and you should know better.




    Really? Seriously though, I don't think I'm being stupid just because I don't think this is as big a problem as you claim without backing it with any kind of data at all except for personal anecdotes.
    That's not as bad as folks who have never served a day in the military saying we're wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's not as bad as folks who have never served a day in the military saying we're wrong.
    Seriously, if it were going to be THAT big a problem, I'm sure the military bigwigs would be doing more to oppose this. They don't WANT to lose wars, and that's basically what you guys are saying. That allowing women into combat roles in the military, EVEN if they are physically able to compete with men on a strength basis, that they would just destroy our military. I think that is pure hyperbole. Not that there would NEVER be problems, of course there would be sometimes, but I don't think it's as grave an issue as some of you are making it out to be. Some of you just don't trust women I think.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I'm sorry, but given our past discussions and my being aware of how you view women in your "traditional" viewpoints, I can't take your argument seriously as I know how biased you are about women in general, never mind them being in a "man's role."

    You are just wrong if you think that there aren't women out there who are more than able to carry out their duties as soldiers. ALL men who are in the military are NOT big and strong or tough psychologically either.
    Thats the thing though, I don't believe anyone said women should not be in the military or are not an asset. We just believe that they are not suited for COMBAT ARMS
    Every job in the military provides a useful function that helps the entire machine. Almost all of those jobs are open to women and they do just fine at them.

    Infantry and Special Operations specifically are VERY PHYSICAL

    I have already provided research from the Army that shows women are more prone to injury than men (even in basic training)
    Capture.JPG

    http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/borden/...2-4a518be998f7

    Many combat vets have given their opinions and they just happen to be supported by military doctors.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratrooper View Post
    Thats the thing though, I don't believe anyone said women should not be in the military or are not an asset. We just believe that they are not suited for COMBAT ARMS
    Every job in the military provides a useful function that helps the entire machine. Almost all of those jobs are open to women and they do just fine at them.

    Infantry and Special Operations specifically are VERY PHYSICAL

    I have already provided research from the Army that shows women are more prone to injury than men (even in basic training)
    Capture.JPG

    http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/borden/...2-4a518be998f7

    Many combat vets have given their opinions and they just happen to be supported by military doctors.
    I'll have to look at this later. Gotta go for now! Happy Thanksgiving!

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