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Thread: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

  1. #461
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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The government set out to depose the governments of Iraq, Libya and Egypt.

    Iraq cost thousands of American lives, tens of thousands of American casualties, lasted a decade, total cost ultimately will be in the trillions, and turned the American public against usage of the Infantry.

    How long and how many Infantry did it take to depose the Libyan and Egyptian government? Huh?
    Wait... what? So this is your reason why you oppose equality? Something about libya and egypt?

    Hrm... seeing as how you lack the attention span to stay on topic, I'd say we're probably done here.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I never said any such thing.
    I quoted you directly, so I guess you did.

    If you're going to act like a child and refuse to even admit something I just quoted from one of your posts, we have nothing more to discuss.

    Keep being sexist.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I never said any such thing. Read it again. I said it's not limited to physical ability. Nor did I say "Infantry." I said "combat role." If you believe the only combat role in the military is by Infantry you're WAY off base. However, I do not believe ever role in the infantry is a measure of physical strength, that is accurate of my view, yes.
    No one ever said that physical strength is the only requirement in the infantry, just that it is one. You're saying it's not one and therefore isn't important for women to be up to standard.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 11-28-13 at 05:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I was not in the military. I have essentially no formal education. I have not read military books likely in the sense you have read it. I have read much of warfare history just because it's interesting, I have massive experience in fighting - though that doesn't mean a whole lot with to this, do read and what happened and happens in terms of our military in wars, and have talked with many people in various aspects of military service.

    A person saying "I was in the military so I know!" is like a person saying "I have a job so I am the authority over all private sector economic issues!" or "I work for the government and only government employees have any views of government worth anything."

    Do you disavow yourself from expressing opinions or having any insight on no topics other than what you are or were directly involved in? Often, an outside view is clearer.
    Joko, you make some good points-but one of the first valuable things I think I learned was that not being involved directly means you miss important factors-things that outsiders would easily miss and never know any different. This may seem plausible to people who dont know better-but those that DO will. Dont be presumptuous, it can undermine your argument.

    I hope you realize Im not trying to be condescending or to dismiss you-im just explaining that people who have first hand should be recieved with respect-even if I dont like it.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    However, I suppose, the majority should have the finger strength for trigger pull. Not 100%, but probably most.
    Jesus christ. It's far worse than I thought. You believe the toughest physical requirement for infantry is pulling a trigger. Now I see where all of your other ridiculous views have built off of.

    I don't think there's anything I could possibly say that could ever bring you out of that deep of an abyss of ignorance.

    I'm heading out, but I'll leave one last video to address your 'Women who want to be in the infantry are too weak to ever do pullups', assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    You have us mixed up. It is CPWILL that claims no small units are ever sent out. The account I gave was of a Marine who lead a squad doing exactly what you said is done. To root them out in remote, rugged terrain. On foot. Small unit. Carrying only small arms.

    Whatever he did certainly got some people's attention. His parents are friends with my wife's parents, and her father is their family minister. They had not wanted him to go into the Marines for the reason he was - to literally within the legal context of war hunt and kill people. That was his specific reason. And I know him well enough to know is someone ideally suited to do so. A hunter since a young child. 4.0 smart. State wrestling champ, though not a big guy. Had a couple bigger brothers who'd beat him up, until it came where he could. A natural leader.

    He was offered a high paying position training special ops teams - to train them, not lead them - as this to become an increasing direction the military is headed - to take out specific persons and targets including when drones can't get the job done. His family thought he should accept it. He turned it down. That he had done what he set out to do and has no intention of putting up with all the BS he'd have to put up with in such a position.

    He stated (repeating it) "that Marines walk into battle." I suspect the picture you showed is exactly what he and his squad did, though in his words they preferred to move to small village to small village as temp. base of operation. He wanted the "outsiders" (enemy/insurgents) to see them as vulnerable - particularly at night - but that they actually did most their hunting at night - adding the advantage that they had night vision gear. Most their kills occurred at night.

    Is anyone saying that the military never deployed such tactics? To send out search-and-destroy patrols that stayed out more than a few hours? The army would show up as would air support time to time. He said that the army just screwed up their relationship with the locals and when air power showed up they were wasting their time as the enemy would just go into hiding. His view was that if his squad was seen as alone, undermanned and without support then the insurgents were more likely to try to ambush or take them on. The challenge - to his mind - was not successfully killing the enemy. It was getting the enemy to come out of hiding and fleeing to engage them. He also had some tactics to get local villages to give them info of who and where to hunt.

    CPWILLs claims it fact that our military never does anything that doesn't involve the movement of at least 1000 troops as a unit. I say that's BS.
    Typical liberal at work with this post.

    Start things off with a lie, then lie about the lie, misrepresent just about everything then attack someone else to try and excuse their ignorance and untruthfulness.

    BTW, earlier you were completely against sports champions being of good use in the military. In this post you indicate otherwise. You are so full of BS you can't even keep your own BS lines straight.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    So you self defensively ridicule his accounts
    LOL. Nobody is "ridiculing" this guy. He doesn't exist. You on the other hand, are stuffed full of more crap than a Christmas goose.

    Nobody in their right mind will ever take you serious because of the repeated ignorance, untruthfulness and gross misrepresentations you have displayed in this thread.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Something he said does go along that lines. He said the US military studied the German military and found that one reason they were so effective in Western Europe was because the unit or squad leader in the German army had a great amount of autonomy in terms of decision power, while the American military was very top-down command dependent. This allowed German units top to bottom to be far more reactive per the immediate circumstance, while the American soldiers had to wait for orders and then follow them, whether they made much sense or not. That would be consistent with the US military now preferring not to just pick replacements but more respect "the unit" or "squad" integrity.

    Curiously, defiance of orders in the battlefield itself was more tolerated in the German army than the US military. Even Rommel defied Hitler and was promoted rather punished. That is just my observation.
    LOL. First off "he" does not exist. Second off, if he did exist and you are repeating what he said, he is just as ignorant about the US military as you are. The WWII German army as well.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    There is so much Walter Mitty going on and so much false claims it too risky to engage in that I'm out of these topics. It's irrelevant anyway. The military and civilian leadership as left the past behind and advanced to wiser goals and practices learning from terrible mistakes of the past.
    Joko, please state the tactical advantages of having women in the infantry and other combat arms units.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Let's go back an post the navy's opinion that aircraft could never sink a battleship.
    That's physics, not human nature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I know that message is false. There is no chance they would send Marines into a combat zone with NO small unit engagement games. That would be absurd.
    you do a block-building, running ranges that start from buddy team, to team, to squad, to platoon, to company, to battalion-sized maneuvers. However, that process takes (dependent) around 6-12 months, happens well after both Boot Camp and after Boot Leave and after School of Infantry and after you are assigned to your third command in the Marine Corps, and has literally nothing to do with War Games. What you did in Boot Camp has zero effect on what happens with you in the Fleet unless you picked up a meritorious promotion out of it, and even then, if you are headed to the infantry, the main difference is that you are paid (slightly) more. A War Game involves computer simulations, Joint Headquarters Command Element, a Combat Logistics Element, an Air Combat Element, OPLANS, CONPLANS, and a script that you follow.

    There were points in time during Iraq and Afghanistan that upon completion of boot camp those enlistees were almost immediately sent to combat. Whether he did that at boot camp itself or something right after boot camp, I dunno. I didn't make a transcript of what he said.
    NO Marine was ever sent to either Iraq or Afghanistan directly out of Boot Camp. Every Marine went through the Infantry Training Battalion Command school first. Every. Single. One. A (vanishingly) small percentage of Marines did graduate from SOI and then get assigned to units that were leaving soon, and had to miss the train-up. They were PFC's and Boot LCpls. Under no circumstances whatsoever would they ever have had command of a Fire Team, much less a rifle squad. I met one Marine who had this happen to him, and he was put on an ECP to stand guard duty instead of being allowed to run with a squad with no work-up under his belt. No one in the fleet gives a flying rats butt what you did in Boot Camp, nor is there any means of transmitting that information other than items that would go into your permanent record (hint: "he did really awesome in a war game that apparently existed only in his head" isn't on the list of items that go into your OMPF). Basically, the two things that your fleet unit would get are A) were you promoted to PFC and B) were you court-martialed. Unless you were court-martialed (and therefore maybe not trustworthy), your performance at boot camp or SOI has precisely zero effect on your billet assignment in the fleet.

    But you view that a person has to be in the Marines for a couple years before sent out and leading a small squad is just wrong. Most who enlisted were in and out in 2, 3 at the most. I think he was in for 3, but not sure.


    Yes, a Marine has to be in for a couple of years before leading a squad. Often squad leaders are on their third tour or second-enlistment. But not being a boot is sort of what you call a minimum requirement. You sign a 8 year contract, 4 of which are Active Duty, and 4 of which are spent in the Individual Ready Reserve unless you are stop-lossed.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Two things:

    A) The "combat roles" filled by women in the Israeli military aren't really combat roles. As a matter of fact, many women are already serving in those same positions (military police, gate and border guards, intelligence, etca) in the United States military.

    Female infantry and special forces have so far not been at the forefront of any major military operation staged by the Israeli military. They have been in support, just as they are in our own military.

    B) The Israelis stopped using female soldiers after 1948 precisely because the concept didn't really work. They weren't as combat effective as men, and the interpersonal dynamic they introduced to fighting units tended to cause problems with morale, good order, and discipline.

    The mixed gender infantry model was ultimately more trouble than it was worth, so the concept was abandoned.



    Because they're true?

    The most "hardcore" thing I ever saw for sale when I was overseas was Sports Illustrated and Maxim. It didn't really matter all that much, as we mostly used illicitly acquired digital porn instead anyway, but his claims are accurate.



    Sort of hard to prove a negative, given how there aren't any actual female soldiers serving in front line combat roles.

    That being said, however; I can provide at least one example of a female soldier doing nothing to help her unit during combat. Jessica Lynch, for instance, was captured by Iraqi forces without having ever fired her weapon to try and defend herself.



    What it actually shows is exactly the same thing that is going on in our own military at the moment. The "politically correct" powers that be want an "equal opportunity" military, so they are doing everything in their power to force the issue regardless of whether women are up to the task or not.

    Again, female soldiers in the Israeli military have never taken part in a major frontline operation. They are being hailed as being "combat capable" when the reality of the situation is that they've never been tested in wartime combat.



    By that logic, women are already serving in "combat roles" in the US military by the simple act of ever being required to go off base in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The problem here is that you're confusing your definitions. Being in a job which might lead a person to come under fire and defend themselves, is not the same thing as being in a job which leads them to directly seek out enemy forces in an aggressive fashion and close with them in close quarters combat afterwards.

    The one only requires that a person survive contact with the enemy long enough to live another day. The other requires that they win.

    Sitting guard duty and occasionally taking a pot shot at someone is not the same thing as trekking 30 miles a day with a heavy ruck or kicking down doors with the expectation of coming face to face with the enemy.

    I'm sorry, but the simple fact of the matter is that women so far have not demonstrated their ability to perform in this latter capacity in any meaningful fashion.
    I'm sorry, but given our past discussions and my being aware of how you view women in your "traditional" viewpoints, I can't take your argument seriously as I know how biased you are about women in general, never mind them being in a "man's role."

    You are just wrong if you think that there aren't women out there who are more than able to carry out their duties as soldiers. ALL men who are in the military are NOT big and strong or tough psychologically either.

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