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Thread: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

  1. #311
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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    He's demonstrating why the military more and more focuses on making intelligence the measure and standard, not brawn.
    There are many combat roles that women can take in the military, and with all of the technology we have nowadays brawn is certainly not necessary for a lot of roles. However, if a woman is going to be in a situation where she has to perhaps rescue fellow soldiers and carry heavy packs for miles without slowing down her unit, then I think it is only common sense that she must pass the same physical fitness and strength tests as the men do.

    The complaints about sex and pregnancies though are bogus IMO, just excuses for those who don't want to consider allowing women, even those who are able-bodied, to help defend our country. I think some of them might even just want to relegate women to "kitchen duty" so to speak.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    I quoted directly from your post on IDF rules. When it states women are "not allowed." I take that to mean exactly what it says, even though they may be part of a combat unit. It may not be fair, but that's the way it is at this time, and the women apparently accept that.
    I didn't see you quote any part that says women are "not allowed." Being sent to a border to protect it in a place like Israel, regardless of WHICH border, is being sent into a combat situation. Combat could erupt at any time, and these women are fully trained and ready for that.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    For real, what the **** is wrong with this guy? He seriously just said that no jobs in the military are physical anymore, therefore physical standards are just there to try to keep women out.

    Apparently in the 6 years since I've come back from afghanistan all combat has been replaced by robots.

    The funniest part, my wife, a petite school teacher, can pass the male standards for the marine PFT. Then we have joko coming in and saying no woman could ever do that and should never have to.

    I don't know about your experience, but in my unit (173rd Airborne), if you scored anything less than a 270 (300 max, 180 min), you'd be relieved of your leadership position and be a complete dirtbag.
    Lying gets you nowhere. I have never posted no woman could meet physical standards nor ever posted that there are no "physical" jobs in the military anymore.

    What I have posted is claiming that the sole measure of 100% combat needs is based on physical measurements is false.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I didn't see you quote any part that says women are "not allowed." Being sent to a border to protect it in a place like Israel, regardless of WHICH border, is being sent into a combat situation. Combat could erupt at any time, and these women are fully trained and ready for that.
    Please reread my post #284.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Please reread my post #284.
    I think you need to reread my link again because there is no passage whatsoever which says that women are not allowed.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Here is pretty much the complete text. Nowhere does it mention that.

    TOTCHANIM

    Females are integrated into service in the artillery alignment in various combat and command positions in many fields, such as command posts over advanced operational and attack systems, management and calculation of artillery fire, operation of communication devices, and conducting meteorologist case studies to improve artillery fire accuracy, etc. They serve in combat units and complete advanced training, at the end of which they are integrated into continuous security operations across Israel. The female combatants commit themselves to 36 month mandatory military service, as well as to reserve duty.
    KARAKALwomen chayal boded combat soldier israeli army

    Karakal is a special battalion (gdud) inside the realm of Chir that is comprised of both women and men, both of which do all of the training together and exercises/guarding which is required. It is a unit that is full capacity combat and mainly is stationed in the south at the Egyptian border and the Jordanian border. Women need to posses an 82 profiles (Men 72) and pass Gibbush Lochemot (Women Fighters Tryout) in order to be accepted into Karakal. To find out when the gibbushim are, please look at Gibbushim Dates.
    OKETZ

    This is a sayaret of the Kfir Brigade. For women, they must first pass Gibbush Lochemot (Female Fighter Tryout) in order to be a fighter. If a woman passes the Gibbush, she is placed Karakal (which is a faction of the Kfir Brigade). Once starting tironut in Karakal, there is a Gibbush (Tryout) within the unit in order to be accepted to Oketz.
    Men need to be drafted into Kfir, and then do the Gibbush for Oketz. If they pass the Gibbush men are placed into Oketz. If they do not pass, then they continue as a combat soldier in Kfir.

    Oketz specializes in training and handling dogs for military applications. Each dog is now trained to have a particular speciality. Attack dogs are trained to operate in urban areas, as well as in rural, bushy areas. Dogs are also trained as tracking and chasing dogs, for manhunts and detecting breaches at the borders. In addition, dogs are also trained as weapons and ammunition dogs, to search for guns and munitions, as explosive dogs, to sniff out hidden explosives and as search and rescue dogs, to find people in collapsed buildings. Oketz operators are often assigned to other units in the case of a particular need for their specialist skills, such as in the extraction of terrorists from fortified buildings.


    MODI'IN SADEH

    Modi'in Sadeh (Field Intelligence Corps) is the youngest of the corps in the land forces of the IDF. The corps is responsible for intelligence collection in the field and the transfer of that information to the other field units (they are also known as, "The viewer before the camp"). These fighters who collect intelligence in Modi'in Sadeh have a fairly unique role, which combines combat capabilities as infantry soldiers with intelligence-gathering skills using advanced technology, and additionally using high social skills, as the work is done in small teams. A soldier can serve as someone who moves from place to place, someone who is involved in deep inside intelligence collection, or someone who does look-outs and views more from the back (from some type of post for example). Inside of the corps are three battalions - "Shachaf" which is under the Northern Command, "Nitzan" which is under the Central Command, and "Nesher" which is under the Southern Command.
    CHILUTZ veHATZALA

    A combatant position responsible for retrieving and rescuing using various methods. To do so, there are different training techniques practiced on a daily basis. Training for this unit is three months. Often, soldiers in this unit are sent to natural disaster zones abroard (Haiti's Tsumani in 2010 for example).
    MAGAV - (Mishmar Hagvul)

    A counter-terrorism branch of the Israeli National Police, affiliated with the IDF. Females in this unit sign on for three years and work as border guards, often in the West Bank. Women are a commodity in this unit especially for searching females illegally crossing the border.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Setting aside that in fact "social agenda" most certainly matters as we aren't a society that exists for the military, but the other way around, I suppose it is typical for low-rankers to bitch that the higher ups in the military don't know what they are doing. But, then, there are reasons those such as you were/are low rankers.
    LOL. Please tell me more about the time I spent in the military. As you have proven time and time again in this thread, you don't have a clue.

    The level of troops the military needs to enlist varies greatly, mostly often due to whether or not the USA is at war. During Vietnam, the 1st war against Iraq and the 2nd, the military ramped up recruitment (and draft for Vietnam) - and lower standards. In other times, such as now, the military has more potential recruits than it needs - particularly when unemployment goes up - so has increased standards.
    LOL. Why do you think the waivers and lowered standards went away just as soon as possible?

    ONCE AGAIN, THE MILITARY HAS INCREASED THE STANDARDS FOR ENLISTEES, not the other way around as you lament. The military has increased the standards by what the military most has valued for many decades now.
    Show exactly what it is you are talking about.

    Who do they enlist at the higher rank? A state wrestling champion? Or someone with ANY bachelor's degree? In fact, if those two enlist at the same time, the person with the BA will be a superior at higher pay than the more "powerful" wrestling champion. Everyone knows that too, but the reasoning is lost to you it seems. Even "in combat," it will be that college grad that will be ordering the wrestling champ what to do.
    LOL. You really have not a clue as to what you are talking about. None. Officers do not enlist, they are commissioned or have a warrant. And your "fact" is not a fact at all. The only "everyone knows that too" only includes the people that don't have a clue as to what they are talking about, IOW, you. And is there a reason you don't think many enlisted members don't have a college degree? Other than you not knowing what you are talking about?

    The military increased or decreased minimal requirements for enlistment, based upon need. The standards are adjusted up and down exactly opposite of what YOU claim the military needs.
    LOL. A minute ago you said they increased. Now you say they go up and down. Make your mind up.

    At this time the military doesn't need a large number of soldiers, so it has RAISED standards. But the standards they raise and lower are intellectual and educational standards, not pull-up standards. So while you think what made you valuable was physical strength, the military does not - nor has it ever - based it's enlistment standards upon physical strength. It's enlistment standards are based upon level of intelligence and education.
    LOL. Once again, you speak of things you know nothing about. The physical standards have been changed many times over the years.

    Sure, having a military selection and promotion practice based upon intelligence and education offends YOU - and you RAGE that those in charge of the military does not agree with your view that what makes a good soldier is small brains and big muscles.
    LOL as always at your posts. You have already lost this argument way back, so now you have to make up things you claim I said. typical liberal.

    So rage on that the military should have 20 mile run and pull up contests to decide who runs the military if that makes you feel better about yourself. But there are reasons why guys like you never call the shots in the military. Guys like you were to follow orders of those big-brain officers telling you want to do with your muscles when you're over the wire they sent you over.
    You just can't quit making things up. And you have no idea of what I did when in the military. I ask you one thing, from now on keep me out of your made up fantasy land.

    FOR DECADES the military has raised and lowered it standards based upon aptitude and intelligence, not muscle and brawn. And it will continue to do so.
    Congrads. You finally hit something that will stick.

    THUS, since more women pursue higher education than men now do - as many men believe than being on the football team is a job qualifier - the military will more and more seek out women, because more women will be more highly educated than men. The military does not have a shortage of muscle-heads. They need brainy people. Either gender. Even in combat. Excluding women reduces the intelligence of the Marines by 50% - and they won't do it much longer.
    Aw. So how do you explain why the military asks potential recruits what type things they have particapted in? LOL. Don't go fishing dude, you'll never catch a thing.
    I've wasted enough time on you for now. Go on back to your phony made up world.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That's insane.
    Only to people living in fantasy land.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    There are many combat roles that women can take in the military, and with all of the technology we have nowadays brawn is certainly not necessary for a lot of roles. However, if a woman is going to be in a situation where she has to perhaps rescue fellow soldiers and carry heavy packs for miles without slowing down her unit, then I think it is only common sense that she must pass the same physical fitness and strength tests as the men do.

    The complaints about sex and pregnancies though are bogus IMO, just excuses for those who don't want to consider allowing women, even those who are able-bodied, to help defend our country. I think some of them might even just want to relegate women to "kitchen duty" so to speak.
    Who is making the extreme sexist declares are men who were bottom of the totem pole members in the military. They have an extremely simplistic view of what national defense and military defense needs and tactics are. They do not grasp (or do not want to) that the real objectives in policing wars nor the vast range of goals and tasks given to the US military by civilian command - which I imagine they generally despise.

    The military has learned, as has civilian leadership, that large numbers of infantry and ground troops - whether 30,000 or 200,000 or 500,000 - do not result in a final victory. Rather, it results in ultimate stalemate at best and more often weakening of the military, support of the military and damage to our relationship with other countries - plus is astronomically expensive. Costs thousands and tens of thousands of Americans killed and upwards of 10 times as many wounded. The total final costs runs into the trillions. Literally. Vietnam. Iraq. Afghanistan. Over and over the same lesson. Sending out massive numbers of ground troops for most war situations does NOT obtain the actual final objective.

    Who actually first recognized this was Ronald Reagan, but the military is very stubborn about keeping up with the times. I gave an example of how the attitudes and tactics of the military has changed, and in that change traditional "infantry" in terms of mass numbers is no longer needed or wanted.

    It is a combination of technological superiority, being PR tactically skilled and specific targets/people being taken out that is the future. The goal for Libya was to take out the government (right or wrong) and it was accomplished without massive numbers of ground troops. Wanted the government of Egypt to topple (right or wrong) and was successful also without mass invasion.

    They are living in the past with antiquated ideas who believe the military is and should be entirely built about what they did. Their era is over and they don't like it.

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    Re: Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Until you can show PROOF of where soldiers were killed specifically because of a female soldier, then your argument is nonsensical.
    I will offer this duty assignment, by gender, observation as proof. Your odds of dying are increased by deployment to combat zones and that deployment is now decrased/increased by your gender, thus the proof is merely that your odds of being deployed in such a dangerous combat position are increased as a male and decreased as a female. Openings for (odds of?) assignnment to REMF (support or non-combat) positions are increased for females and thereby decreased for males.

    http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/view...working_papers
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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