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Thread: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate’ fo

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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm a United Methodist - I would disagree. Do you have any data on this?
    Although there is an overseeing home office, each church in it's own way is an independent unit with a great deal of diversity upon the personalities in each individual church. MOST denominations try to allow as much diversity and tolerance as possible within their base doctrines -certainly among the members.

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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Although there is an overseeing home office, each church in it's own way is an independent unit with a great deal of diversity upon the personalities in each individual church.
    In the United Methodist Church? There is absolutely a series of oversight functions - every Pastor is directly overseen by a District Superintendent who is overseen in turn by a Bishop who has the responsibility of assigning and moving pastors around his conference. In turn, the Bishops answer to the Council of Bishops. Churches are not independent in the matter of doctrine.

    I've spent about 30 years in the United Methodist Church, and am a friend, a son, a grandson, and a great-grandson of UMC clergy. I went to a Methodist College where my religious studies professor was a former President of the Council of Bishops. Now, I'm not pretending to be an expert, but what, exactly, is your experience here?

    MOST denominations try to allow as much diversity and tolerance as possible within their base doctrines -certainly among the members.
    Well a "base doctrine" of the UMC is the Wesleyan Quadrilateral - which states that once you toss out Scripture as the primary means for identifying Christian truth, you are wrong. The Book of Discipline and our pronouncements are equally clear - spokespersons of the United Methodist Church are not authorized to publicly approve of the homosexual lifestyle, which is incompatible with Christian teaching.

    The UMC Statement on Human Sexuality

    ....We affirm that all persons are individuals of sacred worth, created in the image of God. All persons need the ministry of the Church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and considers this practice incompatible with Christian teaching. We affirm that God’s grace is available to all. We will seek to live together in Christian community, welcoming, forgiving, and loving one another, as Christ has loved and accepted us. We implore families and churches not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons....
    Last edited by cpwill; 11-21-13 at 01:04 PM.

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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The Catholic Church has no intention whatsoever of supporting SSM in any way. The Pope's statements are roughly exactly what the standard answer of mainline Christianity has been and continues to be.
    A majority of catholics here support it and in time, so will the church authority. There's a clear trajectory, it's amazing you can't see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    SSM for them is simply part of the same long-term trend. When you seek to liberalize your theology in order to become "relevant to the world", you simply become 'of the world', and your value added ceases to be. It has happened to one extent or another in most of the mainstream denominations, which is why they are fading, and why the non-denominational churches are growing, even as the populace becomes more secular. It is a self-destructive idea for a denomination to decide to forgo Gods' kingdom for the approval of the worldly one.
    Here is the issue i have with it. I was dragged to a UMC growing up, and you know those signs they keep outside. One time it said "No matter what you've done, all are welcome here." Well then you go inside and this guy is ranting about the 'homo agenda' and it's just clear they don't really mean what's on the sign. I can't take it seriously when they will welcome drug addicts, prostitutes, criminals of all types, and this is what they choose to obsess over. Especially when meth use is so huge out there, they could do a lot more to combat that, yet i never heard anything along those lines.

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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    When in the past 2000 years has homosexuality ever been so accepted as it is now? When has the church ever had such problems with getting the young to attend? You don't have to actually be homosexual to get fed up with the ogre in effeminate clothes who goes to the pulpit and condemns people. But of course, religion being what it is, a huge number of churches, several thousands, have gotten behind gay rights in the past decade alone. That longer beat is actually quite susceptible to changing culture. It must be to survive.
    The 1300s, the 1960s and many times inbetween, study some history. Why the heck do you think the catholic church put together a Bible and made satan front and center the big boogieman - to put butts in pews. Homosexuality has been largely ignored by many non-western culture throught the last 2000 years. But why the last two thousand years? Are you thinking that's the whole of human history?

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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    A majority of catholics here support it and in time, so will the church authority. There's a clear trajectory, it's amazing you can't see it.
    A majority of Catholics living in America support allowing the State to issue marriage licenses to homosexual couples, which does not mean that they support their church doing so. Nor does the Catholic Church embrace a bottom-up Development of Doctrine or Theology. Nor are American Catholics anything close to a controlling interest in the Catholic Church. What you are describing is.... not plausible.

    Here is the issue i have with it. I was dragged to a UMC growing up, and you know those signs they keep outside. One time it said "No matter what you've done, all are welcome here." Well then you go inside and this guy is ranting about the 'homo agenda' and it's just clear they don't really mean what's on the sign. I can't take it seriously when they will welcome drug addicts, prostitutes, criminals of all types, and this is what they choose to obsess over. Especially when meth use is so huge out there, they could do a lot more to combat that, yet i never heard anything along those lines.
    then you've been going to the wrong churches. We have homosexual pastors in the UMC, for cripes sakes. I don't know about the "homo agenda", I've gone to quite a few UMC churches and I don't think I've ever heard the phrase - and I was in Alabama. Methinks you are continuing to paint a strawman because you don't want to address the actual church.

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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    When in the past 2000 years has homosexuality ever been so accepted as it is now?
    In the first few centuries of that timeline. Homosexuality was part and parcel of the latter Roman Empire.

    That's why all these folks who think that adopting sexual libertine values is "getting with the 21st century" are so entertaining to me. This isn't some "new" 21st Century. It's 1st and 2nd Century. The Church has been here before - the letters to the Corinthians didn't exactly come out of a vacuum.

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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    again 100% false
    facts and reality still prove both of your posts wrong


    until you can magically make the Methodist churches and their pastors who support gay marriage disappear your posts will always be false

    but just for fun next time im there ill tell them know you said they arent real Methodist churches or pastors lol

    I have no clue why these facts and reality are so hard to understand
    Except nobody has said that, that's your strawman. Once again, has to do with ordination, NOT support of gay marriage. Should have stopped when you finally understood you have no clue.

    Quite simply, those mthodist churches you see supporting gay marriage have methodist pastors that are ordained by the Council or Bishops. The Bishops obviously have not removed their ordination, so they are still methodist pastors.
    Last edited by clownboy; 11-21-13 at 01:33 PM.

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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptyme View Post
    1.)My question is that if these churches you are talking about openly go against the teachings of said religion can you really say they are of that religion?

    2.) If a group of people claim to be vegetarians but continually eat meat are they still considered vegetarian?

    3.) The people of Westboro Baptist church come to mind, I doubt you will find any Baptists churches willing to associate with them.
    1.) and my question back would be why not and who says what the teaching of those religions factually are? How much is under the umbrella of Christianity? do they all teach and believe the same things?

    when things do change in the church who makes those decisions?

    why are parts of the bible or other religious books totally ignored and others are gospel?

    I understand your question but my point is what are the facts, theres lots of christian churches that dont agree, yet they still say christian or what ever on the church, same for other religions, who am i to tell them? or who are they to tell me?

    2.) a word and a religion are NOT the same, the definition of vegetarian is those who dont eat meat, seems hard to get around BUT lets look at your example or a WORD.

    how many vegetarians still eat fish? eggs? etc etc many people have rules for their "vegetarianism"

    how many people are pro-life up to 12 weeks, then people that only allow abortion in case of death of the mother or rape come along and say those people arent really pro-life, then the people that dont allow it for any reason come along and say THOSE people arent prolife etc etc

    you are making my point about facts and reality for me

    3.) yes you are probably right there are a lot of baptist that wont associate with them but notice how you still called them baptist?


    point is there are Methodist churches that are ok with equal rights for gays and will do their marriages and welcome them in the church, i cant change this fact, you cant change this fact so how does anybody just magically say they arent real, not saying YOU did, just saying how do people even think thats possible.

    Its takes a whole lot of ignorance and arrogance to think that decision can be made for those groups, again not saying you did this just pointing it out

    its the same here with politics, people telling others you are not really a republican, democrat, liberal, conservative etc. Its all BS, people trying to put others done when they have zero ability and power too.

    but it was a good question by the way
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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    1.)Except nobody has said that, that's your strawman. Once again, has to do with ordination, NOT support of gay marriage.
    2.) Should have stopped when you finally understood you have no clue.
    3.) Quite simply, those mthodist churches you see supporting gay marriage have methodist pastors that are ordained by the Council or Bishops. The Bishops obviously have not removed their ordination, so they are still methodist pastors.

    1.) nop YOU said he cant me a pastor at those Methodist churches, thats false
    2.) oh look a failed deflection and attempted and failed insult as usual when your posts fail, no surprise here. Facts still prove you wrong though.
    3.) meanignless to the fact he can come here and be a pastor, something you said that cant happen and you are factually wrong
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    Re: Pa. pastor suspended for performing gay wedding says he’ll be ‘outspoken advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm a United Methodist - I would disagree. Do you have any data on this?
    YOU need the proof not him, you made a bogus claim you cant back up

    you claimed he accused the whole church of hate speech and thats a guess and even better you dont now what speech he was talking about. DId you read that in an article? maybe you are right id like to see the proof thats what he did
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